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So after convincing my mom to get me an REI gift card for xmas (early xmas : D) I finally finished out my gear to do some backpacking out in the supes. I'm looking at something probably along Dutchman's trail or perhaps by Boulder Canyon (contemplating camping on top of the lower half of Battleship). Here's my packlist:

-Osprey 40l (love this thing so far...so comfy)
-REI Bug Hut 2 (got this thing because of the price and the fact that with some homemade jerry rigging you can make a great 4 season shelter that's totally bugproof and when the weather is great you can sleep under the stars....also you don't wake up with humid stale air like a closed off tent)
-Tarp and stakes for wind/rain shelter
-Snow Peaks Gigapower Starter kit (stove, pot and spork)
-freezedried chilimac and eggs
-first aid kit (with snake kit)
-compass
-hiking poles
-tons of granola bars
-beef jerky
-flashlights (headlamp and regular)
-some thermals in case its cold enough
-REI 20+ bag
-REI pad
-3 litre camelback
-extra gallon of water
-My Green Trails and Beartooth maps
-Change of socks
-TP

Since this is my first backpack (man I wish my parents had put me in scouts ><) I wanted to get the advice of you guys and make sure I'm prepared for this. I know I don't have a filter yet but I should be fine with over a gallon and a half considering I'm not doing a full 2 days (only looking for about 10 miles max round trip).

Planning on probably doing this tomorrow or friday night if anybody wants to come along and perhaps show me the ropes : ) Just so excited to finally get to do more than just dayhikes out here in the Supes. Look forward to you guys advice. Also if you have any must do overnighters that are within the 10 mile roundtrip criteria I would love to hear them (also I have a Kia Rio if that factors into getting to any of these trailheads).

because it does. Frankly, you are not likely to contract it in the springs found in the Supes because most of the springs are coming straight out of the ground. You can easily drink from the pipe at Labarge and Chalebois without worry. Also, sand and soil are a natural filter and as long as you dont have an area (like dripping spring) that is fouled by cattle and other domestics, many of the pools are also safe. There are no beavers in the supes and the only thing left to worry about is cattle, humans, and horses. Deer in the area are very unlikely to spread cysts. Im not telling you to drink water untreated, im simply saying that i know what and how to find clean water and its a very easy skill to master - I also know of some other guys who dont treat water at all.. but they know how to find areas like the ones I explain above. I dont know what water skiing has to do with this??
FWIW, even if you do come down with a case of the "green apple quick step" you can always take the natural remedy which I hear is far better than the junk you get in prescription form, ie the "flagyll" and others. Its called Crucifixion Thorn and it grows in the higher elevations of the Western Supes. Make a tea out of the bark and branches seeped in hot water and it will kill giardia and other amoebas and their cysts. You can also find this plant in ready form at Hi Health and GNC.
also, another FWIW, it has been documented by several professionals that most contamination is not from the treated water, but eating with contaminated hands and/or cookwear. Do a google search.

I drank from a spring on Mt Wrightson which was coming from a spring in the mountains straight out of the ground from a pipe in the spring flowing quite fast. No it was from cooking (didn't cook) or hand wash all time. And the only thing I did was the water. The thing with the waterskiing is that when you fall in the water sometimes you swallow the water. That is how he gets all those cases from lakes. But then that has a major chance of contamination.

so you treated the water from this spring pipe with chlorine dioxide? im confused, you sound as though you didnt treat this spring water... my mistake if you were being clear...
Im telling this guy that the chances of giardia and cysts coming from spring water fed from the ground to a pipe is almost unheard of*. I just dont believe that was the source of contamination. FWIW, there are numerous cases each year from Giardiasis found through ingestion of municipal water sources such as your tap. Cryptosporidium is also found in AZ water supplies. Also, there is no FDA or otherwise agency that determines who or how often bottled water companies change out their filters. It seems like an honor system of theirs, and yes that too has been linked to giardia cases. So did you drink that Aquafina just before your hike?
im just curious and found many cases of freak contamination can be traced back to dirty hands.
to be fair tho many people differ on the amount of ingestion to lead to sickness. some intestines are more resilient than others?
*that is to say that statistically speaking, it super rare. Of course statistics dont mean squat if you have contracted giardiasis.
btw, Micropur tablets are the only EPA certified water purification offered to the general public. They contain Chlorine Dioxide, which has an additional Oxygen atom making it differ from chlorine, much safer than chlorine and its possible byproducts/side effects
I would use MicroPur with great confidence.

I drank water straight from Plow Saddle Spring on the Rough Canyon trip with no problems, also from Hackberry, and Fossil Springs untreated. I've dranken from many pools with using the iodine tablets and no problems whatsoever.

rally_toad wrote:I drank water straight from Plow Saddle Spring

I've wished there was water there to drink.

I'm excited for you! I, too, started backpacking when I was still living at home with my folks! That was about 36 years ago! And I did several of my early trips solo as well, although not the very first one. It is truly a pastime/passion you can enjoy for your entire life, provided you don't allow yourself to become a couch potato!

All the advice is good. And I learned something--didn't know you could still get Giardia after using tablets. I always use a filter or boil. You can also get Giardia while using a filter if you are not careful, though. Output hose can get contaminated if you are not paying attention. In my sons' Scout troop we used an eyedropper with ordinary household bleach. Three drops to a quart/liter, shake up and wait 1/2 hour. 4 drops in very dirty-appearing water. Yes, it does taste terrible, but it was cheap. We added some lemonade mix. Then you had bleach-flavored lemonade. Blech!

Also, if your family has a history of thyroid problems, you definitely do not want to use the iodine-based tablets. Use the chlorine-based ones instead.

Dschur wrote:

te-wa wrote:Rally toad nailed it. MicroPur or Katadyn purification tablets (chlorine dioxide) are effecient, low cost (about 40¢ per quart) and weight next to nothing. About $12 for 30 liters worth of treatment. You can find various springs in the supes and after last week's rains there should be water pooled in all but the tiniest creeks. Save the filter when you have groups of 3 or more. The tablets are originally marketed for military use, and as such they are designed to prevent cholera, foreign viruses, and very nasty pathogens that you will not find in N. America. (think of a nasty green pond in a city like Dubai) use them half strength in other words one tablet for 2 liters of water. You must let the water rest and be "treated" for about 30 minutes, so plan for that.

I wouldn't trust using purification tablets. I got giardia from chemical treated water. The doctor was saying that he gets several cases of giardia every summer from people water skiing.

In other areas frequented by hikers and campers, as well as places where many residents rely on untreated surface water, reliable prevention typically involves filtration with a filter that has a nominal 1-micrometer pore size. Most chemical treatment methods, including common point-of-use treatments such as iodine and chlorine dioxide, are considered unreliable in inactivating Giardia cysts.

The cysts are the things that live thru all kinds of things and the doctor says besides the filtration the only other way to get rid of it is a full boil of the water for 3-5 minutes.

A Steripen is also 100% effective if used properly.

azbackpackr wrote:Also, if your family has a history of thyroid problems, you definitely do not want to use the iodine-based tablets. Use the chlorine-based ones instead.

Good stuff to know because I'm hypoglycemic ; P

Oooo BTW made it back safe and everything went quite well. Thanks again everyone for the advice....hopefully I'll have company on my next backpack trip.

Pictures?
Glad things worked out well for you!

You can never kill all bacterial cysts by adding things to the water's environment, the best you can do is to kill 99.9999% of them and in the water column there are hopefully not that many cysts to begin with. That may still leave bacteria in the water, but it is a level you immune system can cope with. Filters don't stop virii, but for most places in the US are fine for removing bacteria. The small the pore size the more bacteria they remove, but clog quicker and require more pumping.

UV filters and iodine get most of the virii. Using them without filters, the only problem with the chlorine dioxide and iodine tablets that I see is that you still drink the crap in the water, swimmers and all, and just are trying to kill off the nasties. Most of them say you need to leave it for 4 hours before you drink it to be entirely effective. I've seldom observed people waiting this long with the additives, but haven't observed anyone get sick yet either.

I think the gear forum had a decent debate going about water filters and filtering methods if you are considering getting one.

Look into getting a purifier system (filter with replacable iodine cartridge) if you are considering world travel or possibly, from what I've read, in areas of California.

Easy way to eliminate larger floaters (if the water is deep enough) is to "filter" the intake before putting in iodine (or whatever) with a bandanna across the mouth of the water vessel (Nalgene, Sigg, whatever). Not gonna purify it, but you won't have to pick small bugs and leaves out of your teeth either.

PageRob wrote:Not gonna purify it, but you won't have to pick small bugs and leaves out of your teeth either.

i usually just let the water bugs pick out the leaves for me
i just wanted to mention that AZ has some very high levels of heavy metal in many areas. Recent (past 100yrs) mining has left some of our creeks contaiminated and unfit for constant consumption. Arsenic, mercury and lead are far more important to me than what .001 cysts may sneak by. It is in many cases, best to use a filter.

Good point. Especially up here on the Plateau there has been lots of historic Uranium mining, so that is certainly something to be aware of and watch out for. Pack your Geiger counter.

I quit filtering water for the most part. Didn't in the Sierra's this summer. Didn't on my 3 day trip in the canyon this week. Now if I was filtering from the Colorado I probably would have brought a filter, only so I'm not drinking sand. I think most peoples problems getting sick are more a hygiene issue not a contaminated source.

Glad your trip went well.

PageRob wrote:Pictures?
Glad things worked out well for you!

Once I stop being lazy I'll post the pictures I got. Had to pick up batteries for a friends camera on the way and ended up getting some sony batteries and the camera kept saying it was dead and I would switch the batteries and get a few more pictures. Basically I didn't get near as much as I would have liked. But ya I'll get them up maybe tonight or something.

azpride wrote:

te-wa wrote:Do scribble "HAZ" into the sand every hike you make.

Yes! Absolutely do that.

I still do that when starting out hikes in Shenandoah NP here in VA. Old habits are hard to break sometime...