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this is what I wrote to a friend in a PM and Im awaiting a response... just in case, does anyone know the exact intricacies of this dreaded Red Rock Pass?
regarding the Dogie Trail to Taylor Cabin in Sycamore canyon Wilderness:

"im using the Coconino Natl Forest map as printed by the US forest service, official liturature.
The only thing I can assume by the Red Rock pass is that 'they' assume that if you park a vehicle that you are going to enter the Red Rock wilderness* (by foot or horse)
this trail goes nowhere near their boundary even if they (red rock rangers) are responsible for upkeep of the road, trailhead, and any amenities found therein. (dont know about what if any amenities are there)

it is also my understanding that you dont need a Red Rock pass for entering the wilderness on foot or by horseback. since no road either paved or gravel enters that wilderness (unless a rancher's right of way) then a) the entire red rock pass is illegal and it states so right on the pass!
b) so what difference is there if I park 17 miles outside of the wilderness and then walk into it, or I park 17 inches off the wilderness and then walk into it?
I would take any dissagreement with this logic to court. it would probably be dismissed with a simple written letter to the court proper.

do you agree with any of this?"

We didn't get ticketed but was asked where ours was when we stopped at a road cut to look at some fossils in there. They told us if it was 15 minutes or so it was okay. This was just as you come into the Village of Oak Creek area. We had just barely gotten out of the car when a ranger stopped.

There was a discussion on what's the penalty for not paying a FS ticket. I couldn't find the one I was looking for but here's Matt Gilbert's response five or six years ago on a similar topic.

The funny thing about that is, there is no penalty for not paying the fines, in fact there is no legislative basis for the fees. (maybe for the more orgainzed ones like the red rock pass, but for purposes of this discussion I am only addressing national forest fees like the ones at peralta trailhead) The fees are instituted and regulated by the forest service. The fee programs have been set in place by the forest service in order to demonstrate that citizens are willing to pay to use their own land. There is therefore no legal basis for any "ticket" the forest service issues.

A friend of mine received a ticket for parking illegally on the Tonto forest. (Yes, he deserved it ... he had his Jeep beyond a "no motor vehicles" sign near a creek).

Anyway, we still joke about it, because it was a "Federal Parking Ticket", and had to be mailed to Washington, D.C. to be paid. Now, I'm not sure what the penalty for not paying that fine was (Matt might be right about there being nothing behind it), but since it wasn't being mailed to the local Forest office, but rather to a federal agency in DC, he decided it might be best not to ignore it.

I do know that there are different kinds of Forest Service officials. There are actual Law Enforcement Officers, and then there are Forest Rangers. While Rangers have the ability to write tickets, if you encounter an actual Law Enforcement Officer whilst misbehaving, you're usually in a whole lot more trouble.

I don't anyone else has mentioned it yet, but if you have one of those Interagency Annual Passes that'll cover for a Red Rock Pass as well. Same goes for the parking fees on the Coronado NF around Tucson like Sabino & Catalina Highway. Like many of you, I hit the National Parks so often that it's a no-brianer to drop $80 on one of the passes and then it's sweet that your covered for all those extra parking fees on the National Forests.

nonot wrote:I could make it, it's just a matter of whether I want to KEEP the oilpan or not. Then there's the issue of the whole return trip.

rushthezeppelin wrote:I guess my little Rio is out of the question then for making it to the trailhead.

A few years ago, I was stopped by a ranger at the beginning of the road going back to this trailhead. He strongly urged me to reconsider taking my Ford Taurus back there. He didn't know that it was a company car, and like I've said before, company cars can go anywhere. There was one small section of the road towards the end that was mildly rocky. Nothing that some careful steering couldn't handle. I'd do it again, no matter if the car was mine or not.

te-wa wrote:not really a big deal to pay (now $20) a year, or $5 a day, but its the principle gee whiz!
this is our land

I can appreciate that. It does stink to have to pay again for land that we already pay for with our taxes. But... if it's not "a big deal" then just make it easier on yourselves and get the stupid pass.

rushthezeppelin wrote:If it's just a pass for the car itself and not for each person that comes on I have no problem grabbing the year round pass. I will need it anywho since I'm planning on doing some Red Rock Wilderness stuff soon too.

Yeah, the pass is a little plastic rearview mirror hanger. They punch out the expiration date when you purchase it. A lot of the gas stations (like Circle K in Village of Oak Creek) sell it. You might check to see if a place in Cottonwood or Camp Verde sells it, since it would be a shorter drive to catch 89 in Cottonwood then go into Sedona and then south again.

Man, I sound like a Red Rock Pass advocate. I'm not. I'm just saying, if $20 keeps you from getting tickets and dealing with rangers for a year, then just do it! Remember though, the pass isn't valid at West Fork/Call of the Canyon parking area.

The $80 for the interagency pass is well worth it.
As for the Red Rock pass, the good thing is that unlike the Catalina pass it is transferrable.

The law states "(1) PROHIBITION ON FEES FOR CERTAIN ACTIVITIES OR SERVICES.--The Secretary shall not charge any standard amenity recreation fee or expanded amenity recreation fee for Federal recreational lands and waters administered by the Bureau of Land Management, the Forest Service, or the Bureau of Reclamation under this Act for any of the following:
(A) Solely for parking, undesignated parking, or picnicking along roads or trailsides.
(B) For general access unless specifically authorized under this section.
(C) For dispersed areas with low or no investment unless specifically authorized under this section.
(D) For persons who are driving through, walking through, boating through, horseback riding through, or hiking through Federal recreational lands and waters without using the facilities and services.
(E) For camping at undeveloped sites that do not provide a minimum number of facilities and services as described in subsection (g)(2)(A).
(F) For use of overlooks or scenic pullouts.
The Forest Service and BLM are also prohibited from charging Entrance Fees.


The last time I reviewed the GAO's report on the RR Pass they had an annual loss of +/- $30,000.00 - factoring in just the pass income and the expenses attributable to just the RR pass. More simply, they ended up with $30,00.00 less to spend on your National Forest than BEFORE the pass was initiated.

Also, you can have TWO names on the "America the Fee-utiful Pass" share the $80 with someone.

hikeaz wrote:(D) For persons who are driving through, walking through, boating through, horseback riding through, or hiking through Federal recreational lands and waters without using the facilities and services.
(E) For camping at undeveloped sites that do not provide a minimum number of facilities and services as described in subsection (g)(2)(A).

I think these two points should be of most interest to people on this site as these would be most applicable.

Dschur wrote:They told us if it was 15 minutes or so it was okay.

i guess it takes 16 minutes to drink a Bud Light and chuck the can in a bush...

te-wa wrote:

Dschur wrote:They told us if it was 15 minutes or so it was okay.

i guess it takes 16 minutes to drink a Bud Light and chuck the can in a bush...

It takes that long for a whole 18 pack I think......What self respecting bud light drinker is only going to drink/litter with one beer ><

rushthezeppelin wrote:

te-wa wrote:

Dschur wrote:They told us if it was 15 minutes or so it was okay.

i guess it takes 16 minutes to drink a Bud Light and chuck the can in a bush...

It takes that long for a whole 18 pack I think......What self respecting bud light drinker is only going to drink/litter with one beer ><

"self respecting bud light drinker" Isn't that an oxymoron?

hikeaz wrote:"self respecting bud light drinker" Isn't that an oxymoron?

good people... drink good beer
hunter s. thompson

te-wa wrote:

hikeaz wrote:"self respecting bud light drinker" Isn't that an oxymoron?

good people... drink good beer
hunter s. thompson

Quoted for truth!!! VIVA LA $7+ six packs : P I think the only beer I like thats under that price is the new Bud American Lager.....but I barely consider it a Bud product...too much maltyness with a hoppy finish and it has a pop top....definitely not a Budweiser : P

rushthezeppelin wrote:I think the only beer I like thats under that price is the new Bud American Lager.....but I barely consider it a Bud product...

there is nothing american about Bud. Anheuser-Busch is now owned by Inbev, a Belgian company. For chrissake nobody knows why Inbev who exports dozens of tasty, worthy brews would have any interest in watered-down panther piss. They must have secretly (not a secret, really) been after Modelo, who in their own right makes some good beers.

Unless, Inbev is awaiting the outcome of the dismantling of Labor Unions, (in which miller is entertwined- being the only union company left) so it can have a monopoly on american beer sales. (coors doesnt really count for much, about 6% of all american beer sales)
one could only wish that Inbev would dump August Busch IV as director and proceed with forcing hillbillies, for once, to drink tasty beer.
Drinking Bud Light in my opinion, is like eating plain ramen noodles. I prefer steak and lobster, thank you very much.

lol I don't even think coors counts as watered down piss........its straight water with a slight alcohol content......yukkkk. If I want to get drunk on something and not care about the taste then I will just grab a bottle of everclear tyvm : P

But bad beer is better than no beer - right? I once selflessly consumed a couple of Bud Lites I found down in Fossil Creek. I didn't want to haul the cans out full, and I didn't want to further the pollution by dumping them into the dirt. I can honestly report they were the best beers I drank - that night.

Of course, I doubt I could bring myself to pay for Bud Light.

I think we'd all feel better about recreation fees if the FS was also gouging the loggers and the miners, who can do more damage in a week than an army of ATV-riding rednecks can do in a year. Alas, that's not the way it works. The FS gets shorted every budget cycle because we need nuclear submarines and banker bail-outs and God-knows-what-else. There is no "camping" lobby to speak of (esp. not compared to miners and loggers), and the environmental lobby, truth be told, wouldn't mind seeing the fees jacked even higher.

We all know that the Red Rocks area gets trampled every weekend with good weather, and if those fees go to cleaning the mess of other nincompoops (who also paid the fee), then I can live with that. It remains unclear whether that money stays with the FS, or goes for new paint on nuclear subs, but I like to think it stays in the forest - the way I like to think that the outhouse is not full of rattlesnakes.

Tonyp

Kona Wailua Wheat is only 3 months away!
Unfortunately I see more and more fees for recreational users in the national forests. On one hand it's bad because no one likes paying in order to park at a trailhead, but on the other hand it could allow those of us who use the forest for non-extractive reasons to have more of a voice. I doubt that, however.

hey Ive drank plenty of bud light in my time.. what kills me is the looks I get, and followed with the obligatory "flack" from people when they see me drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon.
I fully respect those critics and regular beer drinkers opinions when it comes to "rating" a beer. One of the finer places on the web to read, browse, inspect, and talk all things beer is BeerAdvocate. Now, here's the kicker: On a review of average joe's beer drinking ratings, PBR is given a B- not a great score, but not too shabby either.
Bud Light recieves the over generous rating of D-
this is not BS, look for yourselves.
the funny (not really) thing about the kooks that critisize me for drinking PBR is that most of them drink Bud Light!! what a hoot!!

Now, I can only imagine two things are happening here...
the bud light drinker is the type of dude who is scared to death to beat his own drum
or, they actually think the higher price= better brew.
what I imagine is the fact that Bud Light advertising, worldwide, is the second highest $$ spent than anything else only second to Heineken.
somebody has to pay for all that advertising $$ spent, but it sure isnt going to be me!
maybe I dont know a damn thing about the world, I can only speculate from my office chair.

now.. back to our regularly scheduled programming:

FS says that 95% of the money goes directly to FS related service. (the other 5% goes to a study group to determine why the Red Rock Pass program is loosing money)

I follow the rule of go where I want, park where I want, get a permit if I want. Worked so far.

In response to RedRoxx44:

Interesting philosophy