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into a Wilderness area, i.e. 'leading them' on a 'guided tour', including the day and time, what would YOU do, if anything?

I'm asking from the moral/ethical/mind your own business angle...

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@JasonCleghorn
I figured I knew which page it was and went and found it, and "liked" one of your comments. Just makes me glad I don't live in Phoenix.

I would go to breakfast and order the waffles this time instead of the pancakes.

Public Law 88-577 (16 U.S. C. 1131-1136)
88th Congress, Second Session
September 3, 1964

Section 2c: Definition of Wilderness
Part 2

2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation;

Wilderness isn't just about LNT and lack of development or amenities. It's about an experience. And any time a large group travels together it violates one of the primary definitions of what wilderness is.

If somebody encounters a group of 20, they are not experiencing wilderness anymore. It's a pretty simple concept.

Impact on the land is one thing. Impact on other users is another. And it's being ignored by anybody who leads a group into a wilderness. Doing so is selfish and inconsiderate of others. Period.

@chumley
You nailed it!

By that logic, an airplane overhead violates it, and it does, but we do nothing about Mesa Gateway approach flights over the western Superstitions MTS (of which there are many!), all the while there was extreme outcry over a MFing bench! And let's not forget those dots, either. Then, if 20 violates the spirit of solitude, how is that 1 other person doesn't? After all, solitude is being alone. I don't think anyone is arguing the leader is or is not inconsiderate. I am however, arguing that there are better things in life to be concerned with, and this is trivial. Sadly, looking back, I wish I had done what I thought, and what i should have done, and clicked the "x", in the upper right.

Jim_H wrote:I am however, arguing that there are better things in life to be concerned with, and this is trivial.

I guess I'll put all my concerns on hold until world hunger and ISIS are dealt with.

@Tough_Boots
Worrying about high impact human traffic in wilderness areas and the precedent(s) it may set = trivial

Threads about: Self-momentum and cyclical totals, perceived spikes in pollen, nagging injuries, poor air quality, daily personal rants/complaints, speed cameras in states 2000 miles away, why people don't hike western Arizona, where complete strangers are moving to, weather systems that never materialized and threads about poorly built Subarus = Not Trivial

Got it!

friendofThundergod wrote:@Tough_Boots
Worrying about high impact human traffic in wilderness areas and the precedent(s) it may set = trivial

Threads about: Self-momentum and cyclical totals, perceived spikes in pollen, nagging injuries, poor air quality, daily personal rants/complaints, speed cameras in states 2000 miles away, why people don't hike western Arizona, where complete strangers are moving to, weather systems that never materialized and threads about poorly built Subarus = Not Trivial

Got it!

I'm dying...

Tough_Boots wrote:

Jim_H wrote:I am however, arguing that there are better things in life to be concerned with, and this is trivial.

I guess I'll put all my concerns on hold until world hunger and ISIS are dealt with.

That is your choice, I would prefer to take care of my own interests, than be concerned with something I am not likely to see or be affected by.

OK, folks let's all just agree to disagree. It's fine and its what makes the world go round.

JasonCleghorn wrote:OK, folks let's all just agree to disagree. It's fine and its what makes the world go round.

Yes, and on HAZ it spins pretty fast sometimes. :-({|= ;)

I'd be curious to hear if @snakemarks or @azlumberjack have any insight on the original question. Certainly they have encountered large groups entering the Superstitions. Does the FS provide any guidance on what to do when that happens at Peralta or First Water?

chumley wrote:I'd be curious to hear if @snakemarks or @azlumberjack have any insight on the original question. Certainly they have encountered large groups entering the Superstitions. Does the FS provide any guidance on what to do when that happens at Peralta or First Water?

Again, Chumley is the voice of reason.

@chumley
When I was a volunteer, I would show them the group size statement on the sign at the kiosk and break them up into a smaller series of groups.... knowing that they would re-form once again after they got down the trail.

That's a good tactic - inform the entire group the right thing to do. Let them decide. They just might have some participants who listen and say we should stay apart... (perhaps not but I like to be hopeful)
Supes and Mazies are both 15 limit according to TNF.

chumley wrote:Wilderness isn't just about LNT and lack of development or amenities. It's about an experience. And any time a large group travels together it violates one of the primary definitions of what wilderness is.

If somebody encounters a group of 20, they are not experiencing wilderness anymore. It's a pretty simple concept.

Amen.

Every time I see one of those groups, a tiny part of me dies. It's just so wrong-minded. :SB:

As far as splitting them up? They (and truthfully, everyone) will do exactly as they please the moment they're out of our sight (dog leashes come off, too). I'm sure it's obvious that we cannot enforce any of the wilderness rules. We're not the cops. We're Smokey the Bear. Education is our best strategy. I remind a dog owner that a wayward pup with a face full of cholla is not good times. With the large groups, rather than argue over the arbitrary number of 15, I suggest that they put the faster hikers in front, slower hikers in back and everyone else find their happy place. This way, they will naturally spread out and continue to get further apart. Lots of small groups... much less yelling up and down the line.
Solitude? Solitude packed up and left the Supes years ago. ut:

Thanks @snakemarks and @AZLumberjack for your input, your commitment to the outdoors, and for your love of the Superstitions and for giving up of your time to help others!

snakemarks wrote:Solitude? Solitude packed up and left the Supes years ago.

And that is why I spent most of my time in the Superstitions hiking OFF TRAIL or at least late at night until I could get off trail!

What if they were all wearing pajamas? Asking for a friend.

@skatchkins
Yeah, it's always for a 'friend', right?