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The GC posted on their Facebook page yesterday that they counted over 430 people between 5 AM and 10 AM doing either R2R or R2R2R on Saturday morning last weekend.

My question for those that know the NPS better than I do and the GC in particular, do you think that eventually you will need to win a lottery or get a permit to do R2R in the future? I can't see this level of activity being sustainable and can't imagine what the next two weekends at the GC will look like. One big reason I stopped going to the canyon on the weekends.

SpiderLegs wrote:Prefer to base camp over at the Tusayan Best Western and then do a long day of power hiking.

Good line---base camp at the Best Western. Close to an assured watering hole.

When you do your day hikes, what is your method of going down---a run, hiking pace, or do you power on both the descent and ascent?

@Canyonram - Depends on the day. But lean towards fast power hiking. At my age, I'm faster at hiking than I am running a lot of stuff the past few years. Plus for injury prevention, fast controlled hiking keeps me from rolling an ankle or tripping over my big feet.

Canyonram wrote:I enjoy being in the Canyon, not running through the Canyon in a competition to shave seconds from someone’s best time. I always make it a point to be the last hiker out—which makes me the winner since I got to spend the most time inside the Canyon. Guess I'll never cut it as a marathon man.

x2

Canyonram wrote:I'm curious how these runners cope with the need for water. Are they hiking it down first, then doing their run?

I'm not sure I understand the problem. How do hikers deal with the need for water? Running generally requires less water because you're out there for a much shorter period of time, and you're also usually not carrying as much stuff.

Canyonram wrote:Also, are you aware of anyone doing the Margaret Bradley fatal run (down Grandview, over the Tonto, exit via South Kaibab)

I know of one friend who has done it. I'm not sure there's anything particularly dangerous about that route; yeah, certain times of year there will be no water, but that is the case regardless of whether you are hiking or running. If you're doing it in the right time of year, there are at least three good water sources on or near that route.

@hikeaz

I have no allusions that my preferred method of engaging the Canyon is the 'right' way. The Canyon is big enough to accommodate us all.

Pre-Covid-19, visitation at Grand Canyon was approaching 6 million (5.5 at the South Rim, 0.5 million at the North Rim). Of course not all the visitors take the plunge over the rim and into the Inner Canyon: Steve Smith has collected the Backcountry and River use data in a comprehensive report:

https://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/ ... s_2019.pdf

Visitors hiking down to Phantom to stay in the cabins and bunkhouses are not required to have an NPS backcountry permit (which is why you do not see them in the tally). Approximately 90 people/night can stay at Phantom.

Missing in the data are the numbers of day hikers who are not required to get a permit since their intentions are to not spend the night below the Rim. On busy summer days, hundreds of day hikers are down the Bright Angel as if they are in the queue for a Disneyland ride. Of course, there are plenty who gallop down the Bright Angel trail ‘to see the River’ and are totally gassed on the way up and spend a miserable night huddled in the campground at Indian Gardens or at the 3-mile or 1.5-mile rest houses. Also missing in the ‘over the rim’ data are the runners.

Of the 6 million visitors, way more people show up at the Canyon for a quick glimpse (usually from Mather Point). According to Park surveys, the typical stay lasts from five to seven hours (those who enter the Park and drive the Desert View route) and the average time spent looking at the canyon is 17 minutes.

Most people have zero interest in stepping foot over the Rim. The modern involvement is to snap a selfie and get back in the car—pull off at each overlook long enough to lay claim to having been there---and get back to the Interstate. The notion of strapping a bag full of camping junk on your back and heading down the trail with the intent of sleeping on the ground surrounded by rattlesnakes, scorpions, brown spiders, mice squirting hantavirus-laced urine and drawing water from radioactive and animal-waste contaminated puddles—well, that’s just plain nuts. In the same ‘plain nuts’ category are the runners. Most visitors are hard-pressed to run to the shuttle bus—forget running from one rim to the next.

So, while my preference is to backpack, I’m fully aware that the vast majority of Canyon visitors are left scratching their heads and totally bewildered that backpackers chose to engage the Canyon in that fashion—and call it a vacation. In that regard, backpackers and runners share a common bond even though we may be placed in separate wings in the insane asylum.

@ShatteredArm

My question is: How do runners deal with the issue of supplying themselves with water while on a backcountry route across the Tonto? Not sure how to make that more clear???

Let’s take the Margert Bradley death in 2004 as a starting point. Here’s a good summary article in the LA Times from 2004 that provides most of the details of her run with a fellow runner (turn off your Ad Blocker):

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

A major factor in many of the hiker fatalities at Grand Canyon is overestimating one’s abilities when matched up against the unique challenges and environment of the Canyon. Ego is a killer. Marathon runner Bradley was going from one climate (Boston area) to the dry desert of the Inner Canyon. She did not take into account the hydration demands of the dry and hot (120 F) Canyon. She ‘trained’ for a few days in Flagstaff but that was not enough to get acclimated to the Canyon. Even Flagstaff in the summer can’t match the heat and low humidity challenges in the Inner Canyon. The altitude change from Boston and the low humidity are additional challenges. Note that her friend who lived in Flag survived—most likely because he was better acclimated to the local conditions.

Simply inhaling the dry desert air can drain away vital fluid as the lungs have to moisten the air. One technique to conserve internal fluids for backpackers is to pace the hike according to breathing via the nose—and not going so fast as to have to mouth-breath—you can lose a lot of body fluids simply by huffing and puffing in the heat and low humidity. When hikers are running low on water, the advice is to not even talk while hiking. That will keep the moisture inside the lungs. I’ve yet to see a runner who wasn’t running with mouth open to deal with the oxygen demands.

How much you need to drink is an individual requirement. For too long, athletes (this includes backpackers and runners) were given a ‘one volume fits all prescription’ on how much to drink and when to drink. For many years, the recommended amount for backpackers in Grand Canyon was to drink ‘at least a gallon per day.’ That advice is throughout the popular backpacking trail descriptions and for many years was the advice NPS would provide. (Go grab your favorite trail guide for the Canyon and see what the author advises). The problem is that it is wrong—water needs are individual and not covered by a universal prescription. Did Bradley read up on the Canyon and consult one of the incorrect trail guides? She had more than one gallon for her run. A separate fatality along this same loop was with day hiker Andre Brunelli in 9/2009. Under the Freedom of Information Act, I obtained the NPS report—he was found deceased with—you guessed it—drink bottles equaling a gallon in his day hiking waist belt.

https://www.nps.gov/grca/learn/news/new ... search.htm

New understanding has the prescription to carry ‘one to two liters per hour on the trail.’ Even that may be a fatal prescription for those who might need more.

“Bradley carried fruit, three protein bars and just two bottles of water (about 1.5 liters). They carried no maps, and Bradley apparently had no flashlight or headlamp.” The 1.5 liters would be insufficient for someone just sitting in the shade in 120F let alone running across the Tonto.

Without a map of the route and no previous knowledge of the backcountry, it is doubtful that Bradley would be able to find a water source like Lonetree. It requires getting off the designated trail—something that runners and even backpackers just don’t do. Someone in running shoes/shorts would be in danger of shin daggers and cactus spines should they veer off trail. She did not carry a means to filter and/or disinfect water. One characteristic of backpackers is that they love to take out the latest REI gizmo and filter their water out of a split-pea soup pothole (Butchart called it ‘pollywog soup’). I haven’t meet any runner who wants to stop the run and filter and then chemically disinfect water before they can drink. I also have never met a runner with a filtration device on their person—just not something they cart along with them (maybe the runners here can correct me if I’m wrong). Bradley ended up doing what so many dehydrated hikers do—she veered off the trail trying to get to the Colorado and water and descended Cremation Canyon and ledged out in the attempt. If she had a topo map—she might have realized how close she was to the Tonto-South Kaibab intersection. She wouldn’t have taken off down Cremation Canyon. She didn’t carry a signal mirror—she could have flashed the very popular rim overlooks with an SOS for help. The other horrible aspect of her death was the failure of her running partner to let his rescuers know that she might be missing. He simply assumed that she had made it down to Phantom Ranch and so continued out of the Canyon after his own rescue. The lesson here is to have a plan on what to do in a rescue situation and to leave the Canyon by verifying the outcome for each person—don’t assume success but confirm that everyone is safe.

When I researched the issue of water requirements at the Canyon (blatant plug for my book, “Surviving Grand Canyon: It’s All About Water”), it was evident that the overwhelming amount of academic research had been done on behalf of runners. A good deal of the studies were paid for by the various ‘sports drink’ companies in order to test the value of their product for the long-distance runner. The question of hyponatremia was not part of the recognition equation at the Canyon for many years; the earliest report in the literature is in a 1993 summary article in the Journal of Wilderness Medicine that summarizes several cases at the Canyon:

https://www.wemjournal.org/article/S095 ... 1207-3/pdf

Here’s one bit of advice that applies to both bpackers and runners: “How much you need to drink during the marathon to minimize dehydration depends on your body size and pace, the heat and humidity, and your sweat rate. The maximum amount you should drink during running is the amount that can empty from your stomach or the amount that you've lost as sweat, whichever is less. You should drink enough during the marathon so you don't lose more than about 2 to 3 percent of your body weight during the race. Drinking more than you've lost brings the risk of hyponatremia.”

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a ... hydration/

As to water stations along the routes: “On the course, have one volunteer pouring the water, and another few passing out the cups to runners so that runners won't have to stop and wait for a cup. Water stations should be placed at mile 2, and every 2 miles afterwards, at either side of the course, with several tables so that the runners don't miss their chance. When a volunteer passes out cups, they should hold the rim between two fingers or keep the base in the palm of their hand, so that runners can easily grab the cup.

Water stations: https://www.runnersworld.com/races-plac ... -stations/

So, how do runners deal with the issue of supplying themselves with water while on a backcountry route across the Tonto? (‘Tonto’ in Spanish means ‘Stupid’ a relevant description for running in the Inner Canyon at 120F. It also adds new meaning to the Lone Ranger/Tonto duo. Tonto was either Comanche or Potawatomi—Native American writer Sherman Alexie, who is of Coeur D’Alene descent, has said that kemosabe means “idiot” in Apache. In other words, they were calling each other Idiots. Wonder who was the backpacker and who was the runner?)

Canyonram wrote:My question is: How do runners deal with the issue of supplying themselves with water while on a backcountry route across the Tonto? Not sure how to make that more clear???

Not sure how to make this more clear: they would deal with the issue the same way they would were they merely walking across the Tonto.

mINORIS AESTIMO the G.C. at your peril. We use the term... 'Don't get in the book'.
Bradley trusted an 'internet friend' from Flag .. at her peril.

@ShatteredArm

"Not sure how to make this more clear: they would deal with the issue the same way they would were they merely walking across the Tonto."

You are welcome to ridicule and dismiss my comments with a one-sentence slam and earn a few ‘Likes’ with the put-down. That said, please give your best advice to runners who may be tuning into the original thread. You can diss me but don’t diss the Canyon in the process. Your slam may have your fellow runners discarding my advice since I am ‘walking’ and not running. If that happens, then you are in the same unfortunate company as the runner who accompanied Margaret Bradley.

We’re off the corridor trails at this point in the thread and we’re discussing running a loop down Grandview, across the Tonto, and exit via the South Kaibab. The distance for this one-way is about the same as doing a R2R with the Grandview trailhead to the South Kaibab trailhead right at 29 miles. The corridor trails (meaning the Bright Angel and North Kaibab) are recommended as first routes for both backpackers and ultrarunners. The rules of engagement are dramatically changed when one wants to extend the challenge to the more primitive routes. Water is the issue for every Canyon trail. The corridor route has water stations (when the pipeline is functional) that provide this necessary requirement for both hikers & runners. Not so on the loop under discussion.

Simply stating that there are several locations along the Tonto for water is not sufficient. You need to know where to look and how to retrieve and treat—you’re not pausing at a water faucet or grabbing a cup from a service table.

Here’s the NPS info regarding the water sources along this section of the Tonto (which may have saved Margaret Bradley and Andrew Brunelli). Note that the first water source listed has you dropping off the western side of Grandview mesa and down to the Tonto. You’ve already taken a route that misses Miner (or Page) Spring on the eastern side of the mesa.

“Cottonwood (BG9): Cool weather: Southern spring is usually reliable. Northern Spring and O'Neill Spring are unreliable at best. Hot weather: May be dry.

Grapevine (BH9): Cool weather: Water in the east arm at the Tonto Trail crossing and from the spring on the east side of the drainage. Hot weather: Water normally available in the east arm above or below Tonto Platform level (but sometimes dry at the Tonto Trail) and usually a small trickle from the spring on the east side of the drainage. Further down canyon water flows perennially.

Boulder (BH9): Cool weather: Dry at the Tonto Trail crossing. Small amounts are occasionally found above Tonto Platform level. Water may also be found downstream about 20 minutes. Water is often reported as salty and unpalatable. Hot weather: Dry.

Lone Tree (BJ9): Cool weather: Small amounts at or below Tonto Trail crossing (the most reliable water source is a half hour walk downstream of the Tonto crossing near a lone cottonwood tree). Hot weather: Dry.

Cremation (BJ9): Dry all year. Occasional potholes in the Tapeats (down the west arm of the drainage).

Emergency Water Sources: Page Spring and Hance Creek (east of Horseshoe Mesa), Burro Spring and Pipe Creek (west of the Tip-off) and the Colorado River at the bottom of the Kaibab Trail. River access in each of the side canyon’s is not realistic with some like Cremation plunging 100 or more feet prior to reaching the Colorado River.” Note if Bradley and Brunelli had appreciated that there is no river access on the side canyon drainages they would have known to not try and reach the Colorado—that desperation to get to the River has been the final error for many Canyon fatalities after they ledge out and can not go back the way they came in.

To retrieve water from these sources requires stopping long enough to scout out the water. You’ll have to make your way off the Tonto and either up/down the side drainages. Hiking poles and sturdy footware highly recommended. A topo map is necessary. Long pants needed to protect against blackbrush (vegetation even feral burros avoid and a lasting reminder of their destruction of the Inner Canyon plant community diversity). Water needs to be filtered and/or treated. Note the warning that during hot weather the location may be dry—you may be stopping and searching each drainage only to be disappointed. Lonetree—a 20-30 minute hike location off the Tonto trail—is the best bet and even here you are talking about shallow puddles.

The worst-case scenario will have all these Tonto Trail sources dry. The alternative then is to literally carry all the water that you need. This is an individual requirement that calls for knowledge of your water usage in a desert environment, ie., ‘X’ gallons per mile or hour on the trail. If you don’t make a stop at Page Spring (and add some distance to your overall trip) you will need to carry water for the entire 29 mile trip. That’s going to require a pretty sturdy pack—combined with all the other clothing/footwear/water treatment/map necessities—congratulations, you are now a backpacker. The water weight alone will have you walking, not running. If you have the time and energy, it is possible to hike water down the SK and out along the Tonto and cache along the route. That, or hire a pack mule or two to supply the entire route.

My question as to how a runner would meet that water challenge was a sincere question seeking advice from a runner. If you have any sound advice above and beyond my efforts coming from a backpacking perspective, please post if not for me for your fellow runners considering this Canyon adventure.

@Canyonram - Your posts have got me thinking. With the woman in question, she did this in July. Even I'm not foolhardy enough to do any big hikes or runs in the GC over the summer. My biggest day during the summer was a SK-Tonto-BA and I started at 6:30 AM and was done around 11 AM.

Personally if I were to to do this, I do have what I call my "unicorn" pack. Just big enough to haul quite a bit, but designed for running. It has an 85 ounce bladder, room for my 24 ounce collapsable water bottle in the mesh pocket on the back and then two pockets designed for 16 ounce flexible water bottles on the front. It would be a tad bit uncomfortable for the first few miles, but I did this configuration for a trip last year and overall worked well. 140 ounces of water could last over 29 miles on a temperate day.

I'm not a hardcore runner, sort of drift between trail running and power hiking. If there is one complaint I have about trail runners is that they often are unprepared for the worst case scenario. I've gone out with friends for a long run and while I have the 10 essentials and other emergency gear, they are heading out with nothing more than a handheld water bottle and a phone. On more than one occasion I stick an extra water bottle in my pack when they inevitably ask me if I have any extra water. Think I'm going to have to do shake out cruises before inviting people with me on my big all day death marches just to see how they pack.

This is my first post on the forum!

I was backpacking this past weekend Rim to Rim (one night Cottonwood, and one night Indian Gardens) and may have some value-added information to add here. Chatting with the ranger at Indian Gardens, she said there were new records set on October 24th for R2R dayhikers, exceeding 2000 (previous record was ~1200). She said the ranger at Phantom Ranch (who is normally a wilderness ranger, and a staunch conservationist) estimated over 10,000 dayhikers, but the IG ranger thought that was an exaggerated number.

So based on what the rangers said, the title of 430+ doing R2R could be changed to 2000+.

The only thing I get out of this is the common sense application. Know your limits, what you are realistically comfortable with, do your research then make your decision and be prepared to bail or change plans if needed. Ignorance and or arrogance is no excuse. If you screw up you can die. Sometimes life is like that, or you can hide under a table and never do anything worth while.

RedRoxx44 wrote: ↑Oct 27 2020 3:18 pm The only thing I get out of this is the common sense application. Know your limits, what you are realistically comfortable with, do your research then make your decision and be prepared to bail or change plans if needed. Ignorance and or arrogance is no excuse. If you screw up you can die. Sometimes life is like that, or you can hide under a table and never do anything worth while.

Unfortunately common sense is not so common nowadays, and the ignorant expect a safety blankie.

Canyonram wrote:You are welcome to ridicule and dismiss my comments with a one-sentence slam and earn a few ‘Likes’ with the put-down.

Guess you're going with the victim complex again. Yeesh...

Canyonram wrote: That said, please give your best advice to runners who may be tuning into the original thread. You can diss me but don’t diss the Canyon in the process. Your slam may have your fellow runners discarding my advice since I am ‘walking’ and not running. If that happens, then you are in the same unfortunate company as the runner who accompanied Margaret Bradley.

I don't recall any runners asking for advice. You simply asked the question, "how do runners deal with water?" And I pointed out, pretty clearly, that they deal with water the same way hikers deal with water. Is it unclear to you how hikers deal with water?

Canyonram wrote:We’re off the corridor trails at this point in the thread and we’re discussing running a loop down Grandview, across the Tonto, and exit via the South Kaibab blah blah blah

Uh... No crap? Do you have the impression that I didn't know which trail we were talking about? You still seem to have this ridiculous idea that the Grandview to South Kaibab route is particularly extreme just because some poor unsuspecting out-of-towner thought it would be a good idea to run it in July with a late start. Try the AZT north of Tiger Mine in the summer; Tonto Trail will be pleasant in comparison.

Canyonram wrote:Simply stating that there are several locations along the Tonto for water is not sufficient. You need to know where to look and how to retrieve and treat—you’re not pausing at a water faucet or grabbing a cup from a service table.

It is absolutely sufficient for the purpose of discussing the question "how do runners get water". Again, I'm not responding to someone asking for advice for where to find water on this specific trail. You asked the question, "how do runners deal with water", and I simply stated that they use one of several water sources along the route, which you just listed despite nobody having asked for it. I'm answering the question, not just vomiting out every single minutiae that happens to enter my head.

Canyonram wrote:My question as to how a runner would meet that water challenge was a sincere question seeking advice from a runner. If you have any sound advice above and beyond my efforts coming from a backpacking perspective, please post if not for me for your fellow runners considering this Canyon adventure.

Let's be real here, you're not seeking advice, you're only interested in giving advice. That's why earlier you shared a pointless wall of text about how runners rely on aid stations in organized events, which does not have a whit to do with running in the wilderness, something I have years and years of experience doing. You realize that the vast majority of running that even the most enthusiastic racers do is not in organized events, right? Ever heard of a hydration pack?

If anyone is really interested in running non-corridor routes in the canyon, I have a reasonable amount of experience doing it, and I'm perfectly willing to share advice with people who are asking for it. But your question, "How do runners deal with water in the canyon", does not warrant anything more in response than I offered, and I don't consider you to be someone who is sincerely seeking information.

As somebody who loves to stir the pot, argues just for the sake of arguing, pushes buttons of the overly sensitive, shares unsolicited opinions, judges the misinformed, and generally just enjoys "hearing" myself talk, I really appreciate this thread!

@chumley Your self-awareness is refreshing.

I don't really get the point of this. If you're doing something in the backcountry, carry enough water or research potential water sources.

I find that reading all these posts is harder than the R2R itself!

I blew a gasket 23 posts ago and can't figure if there is a fix

AugustWest wrote:can't figure if there is a fix

It's as easy as clicking the "Ignore this Topic" button.