HikeArizona.COM

I'm new to the region (in central Phoenix) and have made a couple of brief forays around the edges of the western Superstitions. Looking for someone to lead/second a more extensive day hike. Considering 10-14 miles. Perhaps Hieroglyphic Canyon up to FlatIron or something equivalent. The trails and parking seem underutilized this time of year.

Cheers,
Bill

te-wa wrote:suddenly, all women are of the same athletic ability. Oh, brother.

???
If that is how you interpreted my humble tale of personal experience, then you either have reading comprehension problems or you are just looking for a fight. I refuse to engage in a battle of the wits with an unarmed person.

I am outta here.

snakemarks wrote:

te-wa wrote:suddenly, all women are of the same athletic ability. Oh, brother.

???
If that is how you interpreted my humble tale of personal experience, then you either have reading comprehension problems or you are just looking for a fight. I refuse to engage in a battle of the wits with an unarmed person.

I am outta here.

People, please. This is just getting more and more discourteous by the second.

I like this thread, it's not easy to hold a pissing contest in the desert in the middle of summer with a bunch of dehydrated hikers.

I'd still like to see the OP try his 14 miler, if he doesn't die, I feel vindicated in my joking remark, if he does, I feel vindicated in my not-so-joking remark too! Ha!

Also, I drink more than 1 gallon on a ridgeline trip when it's 80 out, and have to lend te-wa another quart since he tends to underestimate how much to bring ;) I stand by my 3 gallon rule for an all-day summer hike.

te-wa wrote:careful with words like "all"
right up there with Never, Impossible, Always, and "trust me, Im a Lawyer"

When I make rash generalizations on this site, I'm usually never referring to you. I think I know you well enough now and vice versa.

iknowmattjustfnwithya
but hey, ive been accused of being witless!
now what was the thread about? yes, go hiking in July in the Supes. I might even join you if we can be out by 11 am.

te-wa wrote: yes, go hiking in July in the Supes. I might even join you if we can be out by 11 am.

Exactly! Enjoy the Superstitions all year round, even in the summer, just be smart about it.

Well, I do want to say that the commentary has been surprising, fun and edifying, although I never did get a suggestion about a route for a hike :>(

Squirrellock Holmes' reassuring input about the springs made me think that a new thread about all the places to find summertime water in Superstition's might be useful. But then one of those spots was a great place for skinny dipping and cannonballs and I'm not going to own up to where it is.

On aging. Yikes, but it is real. But ... I'll use running as an example since I know the data. Other physical activities probably follow a more or less similiar pattern. Running performance for males for distances from the mile to a marathon will begin declining (on the average) at age 35 at the rate of about 0.5 % per year. From ages 40 to about 70, the decline remains at a steady 1% per year. So a 70 year old's potential will be about 32.5 % slower than at age 35. But if that person back in their 20's was only operating at 60% and now at 70 is at 100%, then in real terms they can and do out perform their younger selves. I suppose my point is that for physical performance, age is only one variable and shouldn't be overly relied on in making making predictions or determining a limiting factor.

Oh yea, sometimes age makes you canny enough to compensate. Slipping a couple of items into someone elses backpack has worked for me :>)

On how much water to carry: The obvious and most concise answer is "as much as you need to drink minus whatever you will pick up in route". Somewhere on this site, somebody suggested 1 liter for each hour you expect to be out. In lieu of experience and specifics to guide you, this is probably a good and safe rule of thumb. However, out there where the rubber meets the rock, hydration needs will vary tremendously based on three groups of factors. Internal/individual differences, external/environmental differences and workload (how much heat you are generating). So 3 gallons/day might still leave you thirsty or it may be enough for a humdinger of a desert pissing contest.

On the reported death: We know there was a death and that the victim had a reported 108 temp, but I think that is only enough information to make a headline; not a conclusion. For all we know, he had a fever and was delirious when he set out. There is no reason why a normal, healthy person shouldn't be able to maintain thermal homeostasis while walking in 100+ degrees. Comfort may be something else. Dont know what time of day he was picked up, but the Crosscut Trail was remarkably cool (perhaps low/mid 90's) in the afternoon because of the clouds and circling thunderstorms. So I suspect there were some underlying medical issues.

To dehydration: Most people will get thirsty when they lose water equal to about 3-4% of their body weight, but not otherwise suffer any impairment. Medically significant symptoms are not expected until a loss exceeds at least 10%. And E.F. Adolph, the grandmaster of desert physiology, concluded that death would occur between 15-25%. So think of the first 3-4% as a line of credit with no interest or penalties.

Interesting to see how many people were familiar with hyponatremia. A caveat though; Gatoraide (or other sports drinks) likely won't help you and people have died from hyponatremia caused by sports drink intake. When you exercise, your body tends to go into a water conservation mode. Levels of a hormone called ADH (anti diuretic hormone) usually increase and reduce or halt kidney/urine output. Sometimes this condition occurs or persists even when you are taking in more than adequate amounts of fluid. And this is the basis for almost all cases of exercise associated hyponatremia. Imbibing Gatoraide in this situation is much like throwing 95 octane gasoline on a fire instead of 97 octane. For more info specifically on exercise associated hyponatremia and generally on hydration, google overhydration

In deference to the women contributors, my wife has been doing the Superstition jaunts with me and she says "ditto" to all of the above.

A observation about Superstition trails based on admittedly very little experience. Most trails were created in pre-recreational hiking days. So the routes were designed not for bravado, but for the path of least resistance. Hence the apparent lack of non-bushwacking routes to the peaks. Anybody second that observation?

Cheers, Bill

formertexan wrote: Running performance for males for distances from the mile to a marathon will begin declining (on the average) at age 35 at the rate of about 0.5 % per year. From ages 40 to about 70, the decline remains at a steady 1% per year. So a 70 year old's potential will be about 32.5 % slower than at age 35.

These numbers are dead-on correct. Multiple studies back this and they are the basis for the military physical fitness grading systems, which test 35 yo males hardest (thereabouts). I was hoping someone else would make this point to avoid being in the middle of more controversy!!

There's probably a natural selection factor behind this; chances are the added cardiovascular ability at that age in life gave males in early human history\prehistory a better chance of survival, as 35-38 was a common age of mortality back then in most groups.

formertexan wrote:Interesting to see how many people were familiar with hyponatremia. A caveat though; Gatoraide (or other sports drinks) likely won't help you and people have died from hyponatremia caused by sports drink intake. When you exercise, your body tends to go into a water conservation mode. Levels of a hormone called ADH (anti diuretic hormone) usually increase and reduce or halt kidney/urine output. Sometimes this condition occurs or persists even when you are taking in more than adequate amounts of fluid. And this is the basis for almost all cases of exercise associated hyponatremia. Imbibing Gatoraide in this situation is much like throwing 95 octane gasoline on a fire instead of 97 octane. For more info specifically on exercise associated hyponatremia and generally on hydration, google overhydration

When you sweat you lose salt and water, and most over-replace the water without the salt. that's why you gotta have salt/electrolytes. true, gatorade isn't the simple answer. more and more water is worse, and that's what most people do because they are out in the heat and think that's the right thing to do. Imbibing gatorade can be bad, imbibing water is worse. the whole treatment rationale is based on your volume status, and i'm assuming the scenario of volume depletion as the inciting event (as it typically is here). eventually you treat by restricting everything (salt and water) because you become volume-overexpanded, but in the volume-depleted patient saline is the answer

formertexan wrote:But then one of those spots was a great place for skinny dipping and cannonballs and I'm not going to own up to where it is

i know of a great spot that would work for those "liberating" moments... somewhere in Needle Canyon (did I mention near the intersection of Boulder Canyon? ;) )
one of the great things to munch on that will replace your salts are sunflower seeds. Gatorade, despite its claims to be an elecrolyte replacement drink, well, read the label. There ain't much in there but sugar and food coloring. Very little potassium, traces if any of other useful stuff. Gookinade is much better, but you need food too so if you are eating bars or things designed for energetic endevours then you should be ok. Remember that exercise lessens your appetite so keep a conscious effort to nibble on salty treats.
I actually made my own home-made "gatorade" drink with something used to treat Cholera victims and all it contains is water, salt and sugar. 1L water, 8t salt, 3T sugar or something like that. Then I added berry flavor, the kind used in Italian soda and/or coffee. Cost pennies on the dollar.
oh, a hike suggestion: Peralta trailhead to Terrapin, down to the dutchman and over to Peralta back to the Fremont saddle. then over to the Cave trail and back to the truck.

nickfraley wrote:

formertexan wrote:Interesting to see how many people were familiar with hyponatremia. A caveat though; Gatoraide (or other sports drinks) likely won't help you and people have died from hyponatremia caused by sports drink intake. When you exercise, your body tends to go into a water conservation mode. Levels of a hormone called ADH (anti diuretic hormone) usually increase and reduce or halt kidney/urine output. Sometimes this condition occurs or persists even when you are taking in more than adequate amounts of fluid. And this is the basis for almost all cases of exercise associated hyponatremia. Imbibing Gatoraide in this situation is much like throwing 95 octane gasoline on a fire instead of 97 octane. For more info specifically on exercise associated hyponatremia and generally on hydration, google overhydration

When you sweat you lose salt and water, and most over-replace the water without the salt. that's why you gotta have salt/electrolytes. true, gatorade isn't the simple answer. more and more water is worse, and that's what most people do because they are out in the heat and think that's the right thing to do. Imbibing gatorade can be bad, imbibing water is worse. the whole treatment rationale is based on your volume status, and i'm assuming the scenario of volume depletion as the inciting event (as it typically is here). eventually you treat by restricting everything (salt and water) because you become volume-overexpanded, but in the volume-depleted patient saline is the answer

I'd trust Nick on this one; those who know him know why

te-wa wrote:or something like that

awesome

well, first of all you are missing the point by singling out my example. when a life threatening situation arises, gatorade, powerade, or any-ade is what you need. we are talking about serum osmolality here, and you need particles/ions to keep the water in and maintain a homeostatic balance. i don't mean gatorade as in Gatorate (patent pending) but a complicated drink. doesn't matter which you use in a pinch, there are more homeostatic drinks, that's for sure, but that's not my point at all.

as a historical note, gatorade was the first thing used to treat cholera and it saved lives by the bucketloads.

salty snacks are actually great to prevent all of this in the first place; nuts/cashews/etc are perfect.

te-wa wrote: Remember that exercise lessens your appetite

My appetite never got the memo.

formertexan wrote:Well, I do want to say that the commentary has been surprising, fun and edifying, although I never did get a suggestion about a route for a hike :>(

Pine Creek from Apache Trail to where Reavis Creek joins it and return. This is an out and back that is not a trail and of which no one has reported on or posted pictures of. Little elevation gain, moderate boulder hopping but yet with a few pools that should still have water at the upper end.

te-wa wrote:Remember that exercise lessens your appetite so keep a conscious effort to nibble on salty treats.

this is a really good point to bear in mind.

The topics “how much to drink” and “what to do about salt intake” have been taken up both in this thread and others as well.

Previously I mentioned that there are many factors that determine our fluid requirements. Here is just a partial list (age, weight, gender, training, acclimatization, health, medications, genetics/mutations, exercise intensity, temperature, radiant energy (sunlight/shade), wind, humidity, clothing (color, amount, material, layers), individual hormonal differences, plus individual day to day differences. Much the same goes for salt requirements. This means that generalized advice (beyond drinking or taking salt when your body tells you to) can be dodgy. A number of people have shared their personal experiences on hydration and salt intake in this thread and others with a wide ranging variety of approaches they have found successful. In my view, these postings are useful and provide a wonderful source of ideas and contemplative fodder for the rest of us. However the diversity of these experiences illustrates why we all need to work out our own approaches.

To Nick, my apologies, mate. But I stand by the point on exercise associated hyponatremia (EAH) and your Bright Angel case. Since in almost all cases of EAH urinary output has shut down (SIADH), ingesting oral fluids, whether sports drink or otherwise, will only exacerbate the condition. This is because the sodium concentration (osmolality) in the blood of even someone with hyponatremia is still 6-7 times the concentration of most sports drinks (<135 mmol/l vs about 20 mmol/l). Remember that the kidneys can’t just filter out the salt/sodium because there is no urinary output. EAH is usually a volume expanded phenomena (hypervolemic), though some reported cases are euvolemic. Though it is at least theoretically possible to be volume depleted (hypovolemic), it would be a very rare event. So in terms of treatment of symptomatic EAH, fluids of any type are medically contraindicated.

I’m trying to avoid actually doing the actual math here, but adding up all the sodium from the sports drinks and throwing in a couple of bags of pretzels will slightly ameliorate the decline in serum (blood) sodium levels, but it won’t inoculate you against symptomatic hyponatremia. So yes, in such a situation sports drinks are marginally better than water, but its like whacking your finger with a 14 ounce hammer instead of a 16 ounce hammer. Perhaps it would be better to just stop whacking your finger. Unless inquiring minds really need to know, I won’t post a list, but there have been upwards of 10 studies published concluding that salt supplements and sports drinks are unlikely to prevent EAH. However a really nice summary can be found in the following paper. (Rossner, M.H., Kirven, J. Clin J Am Soc Nephrol 2: 151-161, 2007)


On Gatorade and cholera: That sounded a bit too much like something out of Gatorade’s marketing department and I had to check it out. Remember that sports drinks are constituted to add to the profit margin, not as medical miracles. So after a bit of digging, it seems that cholera and its devastatingly dehydrating diarrhea has had a long history of treatments that predate Gatorade by a few centuries. Effective IV rehydration treatments started appearing at least a few decades before and oral rehydration treatment progressively evolved and was into use before a Gatorade bottle ever hit your local supermarket shelf. That said, at least one subsequently published medical paper claims the stuff works pretty well. However the NIH diss’es it; claims it is missing some vital components and has too much sugar. All in all, fascinating, but I don’t think it has anything to do with hiking unless the wildlife in Arizona streams includes cholera bacterium amongst the Giardia.

Thanks SuperstitionGuy for the “trail” recommendation. I will find a map and have a look. I think I am seeing a trend here, though. You guys sure do like your bushwhacking. Following those cattle trails may be fine for the cattle, but my hide still has some toughening up to do.

Cheers, Bill

well of course cholera predates gatorade, i think you were taking me a little too seriously there. the concepts of rehydrating with more than water is the point. and once we figured that out people quit dying by the thousands from diarrhea. but gatorade actually has been used to treat cholera too...at least that's what they taught me where i went to med school, which to my knowledge isn't owned or heavily endowed by the stuff (though i guess you never know in this day and age)

i know what you're getting at in your above post. i can also tell you as a doctor, i have personally treated people with hyponatremia on more than one occasion...so to each his own i guess. water restriction has been one means i've used....but in no uncertain terms the only method.

since you're quoting medical literature i will assume you are a doc as well, so there's probably no point in continuing the standoff because i won't change your opinion and i guarantee you won't change mine.

oh by the way...drop the mate, partner. it's a little patronizing.

One of my fav. Superstition hikes was...
Start at Peralta TH, then take the Dutchman trail to Charlebois Spring, then continue on to Peralta trail, up and over Freemont Saddle then back to Peralta TH

Distance was maybe 20 miles? Reliable water at Charlebois (I'm afraid that I'm a little past your July 4th deadline though )