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Well, you can say you heard it on HAZ first, at least most of you. My inside track to the Park tells me that wag bags for backpackers will be required in Grand Canyon, starting in January 2011. [Amend to 2012].

But not poop tubes. Sorry about that, Joe. I know you were really, really looking forward to using a poop tube, but it is to be wag bags, from what I hear.

I don't know if the BCO will issue them or not. In the Sierras, only certain areas such as the main Mt. Whitney trail, require them, and you can get them at the ranger station in Lone Pine. I have used one, it was not too terrible. But it was only for one night out of a 6-night backpack that I was required to use one. I am not sure how I would have liked to carry them for all 6 nights. Well, I am sure--I would not have liked it!

And now that I have started this thread, you can call me a wag or you can call me a bag, but please do not call me a wag bag!

Liz, you're correct about the few who would, in all likely-hood, ruin the commodes by throwing non-compostable materials in. I saw this when I hiked at Peralta earlier this year. There were signs all over asking people not to throw anything but paper in but one could tell they were ignored... And just the couple of days I was there, I saw numerous "citizens" who would be doing the planet a favor by getting sterilized...

Yes, and I think you are always going to have a lot of newbies hiking the Canyon. People who may be so tired that it would be a temptation to get rid of the weight. For that matter, non-newbies can get that tired, if for some reason they didn't get their fitness level up enough before a hike (been there, done that!)

As I said, a lot of the South Rim trails do have at least one outhouse near main campsites. I hope the Park is not considering DC'ing these (although I have not heard anything like that) in favor of the bag method.

big_load wrote:

hikeaz wrote:The ones that we were issued this year in Zion had a red bullseye in the center of the 'target area'.

My eyes are in the wrong place for that to help very much.

Is it that much of a problem that we're exceeding what the deer, sheep and mountain lions are already producing? And since probably 99% of the hiking traffic is already using toilet-ed areas (SK, BA, Phantom) then it falls on the 1%-ers to shoulder their "load"?

Sorry, y'all made me throw in the horrible pun....so I take little blame here.

I think that if they implement the program it is going to be a big failure.

maxpower wrote:Is it that much of a problem that we're exceeding what the deer, sheep and mountain lions are already producing?

I think the quantity is only part of the issue. I would assume the bigger issue is the toxicity. Believe it or not, though as advanced as we are, we have found ways to make our poopie the most disgusting of the animals. People, dogs, and livestock (anything fed a large diet of processed foods) basically has a landfill for a colon.

Not to be on the wrong side of the argument and coming from a place where you had to pack it out i agree with most of you about success of the program. Nobody likes packing poop. Newbies and lazy old timers are going to throw them in the composting toilet etc. Let's get real here it may weigh more than the freeze dried food you brought in, but not more than the freeze dried food and water you prepared it with. Your consuming your water if you packed it in and your pack is getting lighter (minus water/ food). If your filling up along the way, you have a fixed amount and your pack weight might increase a little. I always found the weight to be negligible on the way out even after week long trips. Did I mention I was packing out on most of these trips for myself and my 140lb. dog?

bart01 wrote:Did I mention I was packing out on most of these trips for myself and my 140lb. dog?

You did mention to me.... you used the dog to pack stuff out ;)

Touché! Forget everything I said. The best solution is having a pack animal that can carry 1/3rd of their weight. Or stick it in Bob's pack with rocks when he is not looking and have him pack it out for you.

So I stand corrected. Only officially had the crap in my pack when my faithful companion Bart RIP was not on the trip.

Yes, the bags are here. I am hiking Clear Creek in a few days (March 13-16) and I got this email (removed sender info):
---

Subject: Grand Canyon Clear Creek Hike
Date: March 3, 2011 18:58:43 EST
Hello Grand Canyon Hikers

Greetings from the canyon. Grand Canyon will be removing the clear creek
toilet as early as March 7th. We need your participation and feedback in
this experiment, please take a moment to read over the attached handout.

This and more information about waste management can be found on the Grand
Canyon website: http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/waste-mgmt.htm


(See attached file: 24FebClearCreek_overviewmaster.pdf)

Grand Canyon National Park
Backcountry Information Center

Bleh I say!

I really told myself I was gonna stay out of this, but...

In spite of some people's well-intentioned thought to put in more toilets, I think the idea is to take out toilets in some of the areas with the most problems. No matter how much you try to educate people to not throw trash into the composing toilets, people do it. Because there are no trash cans in the canyon, it is very tempting for some, and I have seen people do it. So people will find a way to abuse the system, no matter what that system is. For the park, abusing a system of composting toilets is no doubt extremely expensive. Removing some of the toilets will be (they hope) cheaper. Even though I'm sure some will throw their "wag bags" in the composting toilets, it's not as if the program will start a new problem, since people are already throwing trash in the toilets.
The other aspect is trying to help clean up the areas that never had toilets. Spending a lot of time with newbies in the desert is part of my job, and I can tell you everyone picks the same spots to poop. It is almost funny to see the look of surprise that someone else would have ever found "their" perfect spot. Humans are creatures of habit. Large areas pockmarked with catholes can develop, creating quite a stink near campsites, not to mention unsanitary. There are a few things to be done - encourage people to carry out their feces or make the rangers do pooper scooper duty. Would you want to pick up other people's feces? The rangers had to do dreaded seasonal cleanups through Buckskin Gulch until they instituted a pack-out regulation.

btw, those bags have a mixture of chemicals and microbes in them that are activated when wet. It actually does a pretty good job of breaking things down. At that point, the contents are OK to put in with normal garbage, whereas raw feces are not.

To me, this is a minor inconvenience that climbers and those packing in the arctic have already been doing for some time. Well, that was way more than I'm afraid.