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The GC posted on their Facebook page yesterday that they counted over 430 people between 5 AM and 10 AM doing either R2R or R2R2R on Saturday morning last weekend.

My question for those that know the NPS better than I do and the GC in particular, do you think that eventually you will need to win a lottery or get a permit to do R2R in the future? I can't see this level of activity being sustainable and can't imagine what the next two weekends at the GC will look like. One big reason I stopped going to the canyon on the weekends.

@CannondaleKid
Thanks! Never noticed that. Done.

I’ve been reading and researching Grand Canyon since my aunt gave me a copy of ‘Brighty of Grand Canyon’ for my birthday and I wrote my 3rd grade book report. That interest continues to this morning when I logged on to my ‘Search’ account via the University of Illinois of the academic journals that have any mention of Grand Canyon. That lifetime fascination is how to generate a ‘wall of words.’

So, for ShatteredArm to dismiss and doubt the sincerity of my query about how runners handle water requirements on extended runs is pretty rich. I have ZERO experience running long distance along backcountry routes. The last time I ran through the forest I had a fresh-baked pie in my hands and an angry neighbor lady in close pursuit while swinging her broom overhead.

One common attribute among many of the Canyon fatalities is the notion that they have the ‘commonsense’ to venture into the Canyon. Rangers at the backcountry office deal with this type of personality many times a day. Volunteer to be a Preventative Search and Rescue staff and be amazed at the number of people who don’t know that they don’t know and who are insulted when you attempt to warn them that hiking to the River with their 5-year old in the middle of July is not a good idea. They’ll tell you they have the commonsense to know how to take care of Junior. As nonot pointed out “commonsense is not so common.” I want to be in the category of people willing to learn and accept advice from those who know better than I do and who see through my charade of competence. When I run into people who refuse to share what they know I begin to wonder if they know what they claim to know. I don’t want to end up ‘in the book’ —‘Over the Edge: Death at Grand Canyon’ by Michael P. Ghiglieri and Thomas M. Myers.

Different personalities sometime click and enjoy each other’s company and sometimes they clash. Sometimes you can travel down the trail and have a grand time yucking it up, other times both parties wish they had the neighbor lady’s broom to whack the other person. You can see that on this forum with plenty of people agreeing with ShatteredArm’s assessment of me and wishing they had that broom to whack me one. Take your best shot. I got dismissed by the Master Hiker himself---Harvey Butchart—and lived to tell about it. On the other hand, I did get a solid response from Spiderlegs and thank him for taking the time to listen and share his knowledge. I’d enjoy getting a Zen whack on the head from Chumley, LindaAnn, and Azbackpacker.

When trail mates grate on each other’s nerves it is best to agree to disagree and head out their separate ways. It’s a puzzle to me why we have some still on this trail but complaining about it. If you blew a gasket 23 posts ago, why are you still thrashing around? Find some commonsense and veer away if you find it harder than doing a R2R—just follow Cannondalekid’s advice and ‘hit the ignore button’ on this thread. I think my attempt with ShatteredArm fits in the ‘disagree’ category. For my part, I’m finished trying to discover common ground and hear out his advice.

Hope the Canyon provides you as much value in your life as it has for me. Stay safe on the Tonto, Kemosabe.

Canyonram wrote:So, for ShatteredArm to dismiss and doubt the sincerity of my query about how runners handle water requirements on extended runs is pretty rich. I have ZERO experience running long distance along backcountry routes.

Your query is obviously not sincere, because I answered it in as clear and simple terms as possible, and you still won't accept that it's really the answer.

Canyonram wrote:I’m finished trying to discover common ground and hear out his advice.

I must have missed the part where you started. All I've seen is you talking at people, and vomiting imagined expertise about an activity you haven't so much as made an attempt at.

The entire premise seems flawed in at least one way. Many people call running is something that starts at 7 minutes per mile and faster. Most people "running" in the canyon are not, but jogging mostely downhill and walking uphill. Regarding the water, never had any problem by carrying a litre or less on semi-loups as Grandview-Tonto-Kiabab or BA-Tonto Hermit, or rim to rim. None is that far to get worked about them. Except in the mid-day in summer, but who is dumb enough to do that? If you take a long while to do these, take more water.

sidhayes wrote:who is dumb enough to do that?

[ youtube video ]

Not summer... I don't think. But people still get sick from the canyon heat in spring. So I can only imagine what kind of a disaster people are in for whose idea of a hot summer is 85 F in western Wyoming and come to a state where transplants asking about what it's like to live here frequently are heard saying "how bad can it actually be?"

@wildwesthikes

Thanks for posting the Youtube link. The narrator says at 3:35 “Leave any man who inconveniences you behind” and then his partner explains his health status/blisters and the narrator films the bruising near his knee. Then gets left behind. Yikes.

One of my favorite Youtube vids is from 2011. I posted this on a different thread a few years ago—it makes for a great training film on what NOT to do when hiking the Canyon. The best thing about this one is that it has over 55,000 views and a lot of comments letting the narrator (LiveLikeTim) know how close he came to being a ‘Death in Grand Canyon’ statistic. He helps himself to someone else’s water bottle—so be sure to a least stick your cache out of sight.

[ youtube video ]

Part of the ‘Survivor Man’ episode of ‘The Office’ is on Youtube. Michael Scott looks and sounds a lot like Tim.

[ youtube video ]

@Canyonram
One wonders how that living Ken doll even managed to snag a GC overnight permit considering the planning process involved.

wildwesthikes wrote:One wonders how that living Ken doll even managed to snag a GC overnight permit considering the planning process involved.

Permit? We don't need a permit. We don't need no stinkin' permit!

When I first saw this video I contacted the BCO and let them know about it. Leaving gear behind like that on the trail can trigger a SAR effort. They didn't have a record for a permit by 'Ken' Apparently he just arrived at the trailhead with his gear and did his hike. They let me know they were going to get in touch with him. They were also going to use it as a training video with their staff and Preventative Search & Rescue.

I contacted Tim via his webpage after the original discussion here on HikeAZ. He told me NPS had got in touch and 'gave me a good scolding.' I asked him to correct some of his mileage---he's way off and nowhere near 30 miles traveled. I also asked him to end the video with a warning to not do the hike without first going through the BCO. He never made the additions. Being a space cadet might have saved him---note how easily he takes water that may have been someone's cache for the way out. I don't think he realized how close he was to being another stat. He thought it was cool to have so many people posting comments to his video (even though they are hammering him for his ignorance) and then logging on to his website:

[ youtube video ]

When I worked for Xanterra I would make an occasional drive out to the Tanner after my training classes--I'd go down to the Saddle and pick up hiker trash. I was part of the 'Green Team' and did this to keep the Canyon free of trash. I'd also leave two gallons of water in the open at the Saddle with clear instructions to use what you need and leave some for others and to carry the empty jugs and leave at the trailhead sign. (Those weren't my jugs that Tim helped himself to).

It is not a surprise that there are so many fatalities at the Canyon---the real surprise is that there are so few.

@Canyonram
This raises the question, how do hikers deal with water in the Grand Canyon? (sorry, had to say it.)

Seriously, though, this was bad decision making from start to finish. He clearly didn't have the physical conditioning to be doing this route during the summer; he thought he was most of the way down before he even got to the redwall; the point where he said "there's no turning back now" is exactly the point where he should've turned back (well... a little after, but he might have gotten away with it); by the time he did decide to turn back, he would've been better off continuing to the river, refilling his water, and staying there the whole next day (assuming he had some food); and he should've started the hike back up at sunset instead of dawn.

More pumpkin clogging up the Canyon corridor trails:

https://www.williamsnews.com/news/2020/ ... ing-burro/

@Canyonram
“I think we really want to bring the burros down into the Canyon..." Oates said. “It would be cool to introduce the campers to burros down here since not a lot of them see burros.”
so what is next? Modifying the BA and SK trails to accomodate e-bikes? If the beauty of the canyon isn't sufficient to be deemed "cool", then I guess burros and e-bikes are on the horizon

Burro's on E-bikes now that would be interesting. Next thing they will introduce will be unicycle racing.

@DixieFlyer
I think they're mules.

@Pivo
Burros, aka donkeys are shown in the photo.

LosDosSloFolks wrote: ↑Oct 30 2020 7:48 pm @Pivo
Burros, aka donkeys are shown in the photo.

Is it a photo of Humphrey Bogart and Walter Huston packing out their gold?

5/5/21-
A Washington State man is facing federal charges for allegedly organizing a largely unmasked, non-socially-distanced, 153-person hike across the Grand Canyon on October 24th, 2020.that not only violated COVID-19 restrictions but normal group size limits, too. (Plus first prize in the 'It's all about what I want" contest).
Dumba$$ Joseph Don Mount, who until recently was the chief operating officer at a Chehalis, Washington medical clinic, is also accused of lying to National Park Service officials about his plans, which included having two buses and three vans transport attendees to and from the October 2020 event.

@hikeaz
here is a link to the story if anyone is interested in reading it: https://www.thedailybeast.com/joseph-do ... ref=scroll

hikeaz wrote:is also accused of lying to National Park Service officials about his plans,

Ut oh, Lying to a federal official is a crime with stiff penalties.

Martha Stewart, didn't to to prison for insider trading, it was for lying to a federal official.

@Pivo which is sort of ironic, given how much lying federal officials do as a regular course of living their daily lives.

I could care less about all this basically contrived drama. What I would like to know, is why would someone want to organize an event that large? Unless it's a for profit venture, which is an entirely different matter, why?