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From time to time I have read some forum posts that make reference to Boy Scouts - mostly in a negative manner. I was wondering how everyone feels about them.

I know that it can sometimes be a downer to be out on a trail and come across a herd of noisy teens, but on the other hand I am in full support that gets teens off their butts, out from in front of the TV and Play Station and in to nature.

Does the tall club teach a set of skills that might be valuable in your life or hobby? No, it is a purely social organization. If the boyscouts were a purely social organization then that would be a true to life anology; since they're not, it isn't. The boyscouts teach a set of skills that is hard to come by in any other organization that I know of. So merely on the basis of differing perspectives the BSA would deny people these life skills?

Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die. Isaiah 22:13

and a BIG AMEN!!!!


I just LOVE YOU PEOPLE!

Thanks to all those who participated in this friendly debate, remember, we all Love each other.........right? Yes, I'm right.


Love to all you HAZ members,

Billy

matt gilbert wrote:Does the tall club teach a set of skills that might be valuable in your life or hobby? No, it is a purely social organization. If the boyscouts were a purely social organization then that would be a true to life anology; since they're not, it isn't. The boyscouts teach a set of skills that is hard to come by in any other organization that I know of. So merely on the basis of differing perspectives the BSA would deny people these life skills?

Are you saying that the Boy Scouts have some sort of monopoly on teaching life skills to young people?

Come on Matt, and just when I was starting to be impressed with your posts.

Just so you know there are several organizations in almost every community that strive to teach teens similar lessons. I currently run a program for a local Parks and Recreation Department that teaches teens these (and other) life skills, and almost every city in the valley has similar programs. The YMCA offers The Adventure Guides Program, CampFire Boys and Girls has great programs, etc, etc.

To think that the Boy Scouts are the only game in town teaching teens and providing outdoor opportunities is absurd. Just as the "tall persons" club isn't the only game in town to fulfill my social needs - If I don't agree with their standards I don't have to join.

Thats fair enough, I was unaware of the variety of programs. I had only heard of the YMCA's group (and that it wasn't a very good program). The BSA may not have a monopoly but as far as I know they are about as top notch as you can get for outdoor experience and training (outside organizations like NOLS).

It probably just boils down to the fact that I am a little bitter about not having been a scout. I do support the organizations right to operate independantly with regard to the homosexuality issue. It is discrimination, but they are an independant organization and have the right to set standards. You are correct about that. What I don't like is that the creed is relatively unspecific with regard to whos God. That varies with geographic location. As was discussed in earlier posts sometimes the religious dominance of the area precludes others from joining. I was raised jewish. As such I have the same basic set of morals as christians. When I tried to become a scout I was, to say the least, shunned. I am asking; Why?

I am not saying that the BSA should lower its moral expectations, only that they need to consider that some religions may have similar moral and religious convictions even if the manner of worship and cultural history are different. The BSA need not only be a christian organization. Acceptance of others is important, especially as the world grows smaller (through rapid communication, transit, expanding population, etc..) and I believe that in some aspects, if not all, the BSA needs to adjust to the times or face the possibility of fading out of existence entirely.

On a side note; I apologize if my response to your statement seemed absurd. The above was the point I was driving at. Our transaction was just an offshoot for which I attempted to develop an argument, obviously I failed, so I conceed the point. However I still think that the BSA can set certain moral standards and uphold them free from one certain religious background.

matt gilbert wrote: I was raised jewish. As such I have the same basic set of morals as christians. When I tried to become a scout I was, to say the least, shunned. I am asking; Why?

To tell you the truth I am surprised that you were shunned from the Boy Scouts because you were raised Jewish. To quote Olesma - "don't throw out the entire bushel because of a few bad apples." I guess we can only come to the conclusion that Boy Scout units are run by people. People with strengths, and unfortunately people who have weaknesses too.

matt gilbert wrote:Does the tall club teach a set of skills that might be valuable in your life or hobby? No, it is a purely social organization. If the boyscouts were a purely social organization then that would be a true to life anology; since they're not, it isn't. The boyscouts teach a set of skills that is hard to come by in any other organization that I know of. So merely on the basis of differing perspectives the BSA would deny people these life skills?

Flawed argument Matt. Any organization can be considered purely social. Just because an organization has a particular goal doesn't make them less or more social in nature. Any privately owned club/organization should be held to the exact same standards as any other - regardless of their intentions or what they do or don't offer. The law says that they can set their own standards, so they did.

Not that I'm a big fan of theirs, but the ACLU sees that - they have defended the rights of minorities and other objects of discrimination, as well as morally repugnant groups like Neo-Nazis and the KKK. Was one group more deserving of the rights of law than another? Not in the eyes of the law.

As far as your being shunned - it was wrong, but it was the act of a local group of flawed leaders. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you never got a letter of rejection from BSA headquarters - you were not officially discriminated against just shunned or mistreated by a local troop that didn't particularly want you to join them - right?

The parallels are everywhere. For example: the Catholic church has had a rash of bad publicity recently regarding abusive priests. Did the church saction their actions? Of couse not. Flawed people made some very bad decisions. Their example shouldn't reflect on the general church.

Unfortunately, people see a high-profile case and immediately make general assumptions. Too bad. There are a lot of people that miss out on some choice experiences because they project onto larger organizations the poor decisions made by a single (or small group of) representatives. And that doesn't just figure for religions and organizations, but also corporations and even whole nations or ethnic groups.

Well - we certainly have come quite a way in our discussion of the BSA.

Let's see if we can summarize.

BSA = generally a good group that has made decisions that some people disagree with either on local or national levels (but are still using alluminum canteens).

Kids = need to have caring parents who participate actively in the lives of their kids to teach them the correct way to behave in society and nature and not be given over wholesale to other adults who may or may not be teaching them the way the parents would like them to be taught.

Did I miss anything?

matt gilbert wrote:What I don't like is that the creed is relatively unspecific with regard to whos God. That varies with geographic location. As was discussed in earlier posts sometimes the religious dominance of the area precludes others from joining. I was raised jewish. As such I have the same basic set of morals as christians. When I tried to become a scout I was, to say the least, shunned. I am asking; Why?

As a parent, this is upsetting to hear. Not only is this wrong to shun anyone for their religious beliefs, but it does more harm then good to the child and thus the purpose of the organization is compromised. It breeds resentment, bigotry, prejudices, etc, when they are saying they are a moral organization. Hmmmm....

On a personal level, if Matt were my son and that happened to him, I would either stand up for him wanting to be a scout or I would help him cope with the fact they missed out on knowing him and what he has to offer. I would have looked into what other organization there are for scouting or formed one. My motto: if there's a will there's a way.

My point is, the parent has to be there to help the child through situations like this and also to help the child cope with life issues of this sort.

Presently, after hearing what happened to Matt due to his religious beliefs, I am inclined to say that BSA isn't what I thought it was. They should be happy children have some type of religious upbringing and welcome everyone. I wonder what they think of poor children? But that's a whole other topic I'm sure.

On another note, I think I'll move on and watch other HAZ topic now. I have learned from this thread and appreciate all the honest and candid remarks everyone has made.

It's a pleasure to know such open and honest people who share their views and opinions!

Sherileeaz

sherileeaz wrote:[On another note, I think I'll move on and watch other HAZ topic now.

I thought that too - but this one keeps sucking me in.

Maybe I should just be less opinionated.

Yea, right..... :roll:

Ok. so let's sew a few threads together shall we?

Let's say I was a gay scout leader, with no troop, because "they" won't let me have one. I believe in God, but the LDS kicked me out and I have no Witnesses. Some people don't like scouts on the trail, but I don't have any, therefore I am not a pedophile, although I like the cute scarf. I like to hike in my scarf & Tevas (nothing else), Is it ok to hike like that?
So, does anyone know where I can camp and hike for the weekend? With a view of the rim? I don't like sink holes much.
I am also trying to decide which knife I should hike with? .... Should I use the straight one? Oh never mind...
Is this politically correct?
I think I am lost, can anyone help me with my map & compass?

What are the rules of dress and behavior for this picnic anyway ... Do we need any special permits?



What a great thread!

Be careful when you say homosexuality is morally wrong simply because it's god's word and it is in the bible.
If that were the case, slavery and human sacrifice would be morally acceptable.

Furthermore, dispite what is said in the bible, the catholic church condemed slavery in 1888 (25 years after the emancipation proclimation). Thus, even the catholic church has disagreed with the bible.

Kenny wrote:I like to hike in my scarf & Tevas (nothing else), Is it ok to hike like that?
So, does anyone know where I can camp and hike for the weekend? With a view of the rim? I don't like sink holes much.
I am also trying to decide which knife I should hike with? .... Should I use the straight one? Oh never mind...
Is this politically correct?
I think I am lost, can anyone help me with my map & compass?

What are the rules of dress and behavior for this picnic anyway ... Do we need any special permits?

Only in Europe, yes, yes, depends, possibly, not necessarily, yes, no.

Does that answer your questions? Or did I miss anything?

Daryl wrote:Be careful when you say homosexuality is morally wrong simply because it's god's word and it is in the bible.
If that were the case, slavery and human sacrifice would be morally acceptable.

Furthermore, dispite what is said in the bible, the catholic church condemed slavery in 1888 (25 years after the emancipation proclimation). Thus, even the catholic church has disagreed with the bible.

Daryl, I would love to debate this - it is a juicy discussion - but it needs its own forum. Goodness but you people know how to press my hot buttons. Seriously - I just can't post anymore to this. This has been such an excellent topic simply because of so many varying viewpoints. It hasn't quite rivaled the guns posting of 2 years ago - but the discussion here has been more religiously based rather than politically.

Maybe we need to start a new topic - just so that people who are interested in this can debate while those who are not comfortable with it can just ignore us. Then again - it would probably just peter out quickly as there just wouldn't be any kind of consensus. But it sure would be fun for a little while.

We could call it the "RANT" topic, or the "Enter at your own peril" topic.

Daryl you have given me fuel for thought, especially when you touched upon the institution of slavery throughout history. I am not into debate; hate it! But I would love to see..........hummmmmmmm, you, olesma, matt, and possibly jmangum, and tempe8 debate this topic, it would be interesting to see the different information that might be brought to the table.

I think everyone should be proud of who they are and the beliefs they hold, and at the same time open to hear others views, thoughts, and beliefs. This has been good topic, but I do agree with olesma in that, the topic has become more of a religious debate, and for that reason, chasing away other members who do not want to get involved.

But..........for those mentioned above, and other curious folks, I found some info on the topic of slavery (non-supportive, either way, just interesting). If, and only if you are interested, you can go to my profile and click on my link.

Matt, smile, Jesus was a Jew, a lot of christians seem to have forgotten that, and I am truly sorry for the experience you had with the scouts.

Abe wrote:

matt gilbert wrote:I have to ask you though, you seem to have the same sort of family values as the BSA promotes, and you (and family?) seem to be active outdoors. Why do you choose not to be part of the Scouts organization? (Please don't get me wrong here; I admire your independence from social organizations, I am just curious)

Matt, thats a difficult question to answer. Perhaps I will entertain you with it at the HAZ BBQ.

Hey Matt! And guys and gals, I figured this string would burn out.

I'll touch on the above Matt. I generally do not participate in any organizations, or groups, or clicks, because I believe many have a "Holier than Thou" point of view. Case in point, I do not like football, baseball, basketball, or domesticated sports because of my experiences in high school and the : rein : jocks. In short, my whole experience in school was less than favorable; by today's standard, I would be considered a looser with a BIG L on the forehead. But wait, I just recall, I was a member of an organization, and for the most part, although it was not perfect, they did not care what religion you were, how tall you were, skinny, fat, black, white, yellow, brown or green, republican, democrat, libertarian. They; however, did not tolerate gays. But the understanding was everybody bled red. The organization was the United States Marine Corps. Enough of this.

The reason I popped back on this string is I am curious; for anyone to answer, I had heard mention God and morals several times. What about Boy Scouts across the oceans, with different Gods, different morals, different cultures. Is BSA better than the ones overseas or are they equals?

http://www.apr.scout.or.jp/index.htm

http://www.scout.org/front/index.shtml

Just curious.

I have one simple yes or no question then I'm done posting on this topic because I could go on and on...

If scientest proved tomorrow, without a doubt, that homosexuality was genetic and not a choice (which is highly likely), thus they are creations of god, would your thoughts on homosexuality change?

If your argument is that it is impossible that it could be genetic, please provide scientific proof.

WOW! It took me an hour to read this thread and it was worth every minute. I would be interested in a thread about religion!

Voltaire said "I may not like what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" and I tend to agree. I think this also applies to beliefs. The BSA have the right to set their own standards and if they believe that homosexuality is wrong, more power to them for standing up.

Unfortunately, I strongly disagree with their stance on homosexuality and affiliation with religion so I exercise my right to not support them. I will encourage my son to get involved in a group that is free from religion (we are agnostic), non-discriminatory and COED.

Thom wrote:Hmm... I've read the whole thread and I decided I'd put my 2¢ in on the "big issue"...

ck1 wrote:Our wives would love for us to get involved with scouts...we've talked about it several times...and can't...on principle. We don't agree with the Scouts policy toward gays. It's not right, and it's discriminatory. I know, I know, they are a private organization and can set their own rules, and that's their choice. But I have a hard time with the idea of supporting an organization with that type of attitude toward people.

I'm very torn about this issue myself. On one hand, I commend that the BSA has actually taken a stand on a matter of personal beliefs--not religious beliefs so much as a belief in something being acceptable or not. I'm not dogging on homosexuals... I'm just saying, it's somewhat reassuring to see any group take a stand like that on any matter theses days.

On the other hand, I think the choices they've made (against homosexuality, and though less publicized, atheism/agnosticism) have stripped the organization of its universality, and IMO even gone against the last point of their very own Scout Law: reverence. Reverence was taught to me as adherence and respect to my own religious beliefs (as you'd expect), but just as important, as a respect for the beliefs others hold, however different from my own. Tolerence, I was taught, was a very major part of reverence.

My verdict? I disagree with the policies BSA has taken. I would much rather see Scouts aligned to instill kids with societal ethics, rather than specific religious morals. I'd like to see a group that preached "do unto others" regardless of what the kids believe or who they worship, if anyone. And of course, outdoorsmanship should remain one of the major areas of focus.

But, despite their policies, I would not refrain from signing up to lead if I got the notion to. When and if I have kids, I will sign the boys up, and I will lead. All things considered, I believe the good still far outweighs the bad.

And to those who've expressed interest in leading were it not for their policy on gay leadership: don't let that stop you. That decision was made at a very high level of the organization, and I doubt the sentiments echo all the way down the chain.

Amazing post. You put my feelings into words

Well I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I get the general drift. I am an assistant scoutmaster in a school based Scout troop. Now we are a big troop (almost 100 scouts) that backpacks once a month with anywhere from 30 to 60 scouts. Look out when we show up, cause it's not peaceful. Scouting to us is all that has been discussed, (character building-do unto others-leave no trace) except religion. In the ten years I've been with this troop. I have never heard one comment about religion, homosexuality of any kind except the Protect-Your-pumpkin policy of always being with another adult when your with a kid.

Now the National, Regional & District part of the organization might deal with that stuff, but at the grass roots level it's just kids having fun, learning to work with each other in patrols and becoming more self reliant. Now we’ve had Jews, Mormons, Epicopialians, Methodists, Agnostics, Atheists, on-and-on and probably a few gays. We hold Sunday services on all hikes with pretty generic prayers. The standard song at these services is Kum-ba-yah or “Stand by Me”. So what! There just kids having fun trying to get through the growing up time of their lives.

It's only when someone shows up with his own agenda, wanting to make an issue or an ego out of place that there's trouble. Now there may be some religion based troops with a more visible God thing going, but it's generally only kids from the same religion anyway.

So all you out there who have this holier-than-thou attitude about the Boy Scouts "Policy", suck it up, find a secular troop, volunteer and help a kid stay out of a gang.

mswaine wrote:So all you out there who have this holier-than-thou attitude about the Boy Scouts "Policy", suck it up, find a secular troop, volunteer and help a kid stay out of a gang.

That is the best response I've heard yet. And the experience to back it up. Well done.