HikeArizona.COM

Always a good Topic....

https://www.outsideonline.com/2321811/l ... ble-people

Introducing wolves to Camelback Mtn. would be kinda cool. Just a thought.

Alston_Neal wrote:Introducing wolves to Camelback Mtn. would be kinda cool. Just a thought.

Then we could haul some entrails up there and sling them around anyone who has a paint can....

@Alston_Neal
Grizzly bears!

RE: Ignoring official signage

Yesterday we witnessed a group of about 30 small children led by one adult human depart the 1st water trailhead, ignoring the 15 person group limit sign as they walked towards hackberry spring to go terrorize wildlife or pee in the stream or whatever it is they do.

On the same hike we also came across a train of elderly hikers. The guy in charge enthusiastically decried, "There's 16 of us!".

Holiday weekends are where you get to see the how permit systems for wilderness area with no actual infrastructure come to be.

@wildwesthikes

Yesterday we witnessed a group of about 30 small children led by one adult human

Sounds like a school trip. Hackberry is barely in the wilderness anyways and who cares its Hackberry.

wildwesthikes wrote: ↑Jan 21 2020 7:28 am Ignoring official signage

friendofThundergod wrote: ↑Jan 21 2020 8:05 am barely in the wilderness anyways and who cares

And herein lies the problem. Illustrated as concisely as possible.

@friendofThundergod
If, in my head, I picked and chose which parts of federally protected land were more important to me than others then I'd totally agree with you, but I really don't see things that way. Silver lining is I am sure that being out at hackberry will teach a couple of the kids something about nature; probably more good than bad.

@chumley
Kinda funny coming from the guy who has never ignored official signage, lol, GTFO...

@friendofThundergod
I absolutely admit that I personally contribute to this problem.

I don't think any of us are trying to pretend we are perfect in that regard.

friendofThundergod wrote:who cares its Hackberry.

That's pretty sad actually. Hackberry actually has some importance to the ecology of that area with a somewhat dependable spring. But I guess 30 kids playing around and it and possibly screwing it up would have absolutely no impact on you. It's a beautiful area in there. I think you would be in the minority of people who don't care. But someday, 30 people/kids may go somewhere you do care about, after ignoring the signage. I don't want to hear any whining from you then.

@outdoor_lover
I am just pointing out that I am not overly concerned about a school trip to Hackberry Springs, that spring sees 100s of visitors daily most likely on busy weekends, boy scout troops etc. I think it is a jump to say that the leader of that group allowed 30 kids to piss in the spring. I generally don't go to places that can be accessed by 30 small children and if I do, I expect them to be there and don't complain. Don't worry about what I whine about.

@friendofThundergod
No disagreement there. I acknowledge the hyperbole in my previous post.

Edit: I will say this though. When, in a few years, IF the The Forest Service makes the decision to require permits in the wilderness, as they are now admittedly considering in the Tonto management plan update - it will take care of this problem. But we will all cry about it, I am sure of that. It will be a direct result of groups regularly exceeding the posted limit. That is, of course, me talking completely out of my speculative butt.

30 kids + wolves + my drone in a wilderness area = Youtube gold!

@wildwesthikes
Honestly, I feel I just have evolved some on this topic. I used to rant too, I berated geo taggers on IG etc, took part in public shaming etc. But I have grown to realize that the only person’s wilderness ethics I can control are my own. People will do what they want no matter the law or public shame. I just try to be the best steward of the land I can be while using it, which at times also means I bend rules too, I am sure...Also Outside Magazine is hypocritical. They spray about sensitive “secret” climbing areas and hiking areas all the time and tell you how fragile the area is, but only after they have blasted the spot out to thousands and got their clicks. But they always follow up with, “remember practice LNT here,” like that absolves them, despite the fact that over publicizing an area is now in the LNT guidelines.

Is 30 hikers some magic number as somehow NPS also decided they would allow up to a maximum of 30 rim-rim GC dayhikers under the special SUP permit.

Allowing groups as large as 30 especially in the already congested GC corridor seems excessive when NPS's stated goal of the SUP was to curtail large groups which the big stink were "toilet issues"

Another a bright note is NPS encourages GC folks to pee in the river...

friendofThundergod wrote:But I have grown to realize that the only person’s wilderness ethics I can control are my own.

And that's a good thing. but that doesn't mean you can't educate. And if you think it's ok for some wilderness to be overrun and abused, and everyone thought that way, then pretty soon the areas you enjoy will be next. It's a Snowball Effect. People get tired of people and venture further and further out. You've seen it, we all have. If you don't fight for it all, then at some point in the future, it will all be a mess. And it's almost irreversible at that point. Or an Agency steps in and either requires Permits, or starts implementing outright Closures. Fossil Creek is a perfect example.

And I apologize for the whining comment. When people say they don't care about the wilderness, regardless of what area it is, it hits a nerve. I guess I just hope for more from the core HAZ Community.

@outdoor_lover Eh no worries about whining comment, I just have found out that I have prob spent more time than what was needed worrying about how other people act ethically in the wild...I’m not the wilderness police, if FS had ticketed that group I would have been ok with that too. I take 20 plus boys on a hike in Colorado (non wilderness area) annually every summer now, so some of my views are evolving so to to speak..

@friendofThundergod
You're talking to someone that just took 18 grown kids up a non-wilderness Peak. [ photo ] I will still exert the time and energy to stop or hold someone accountable for their actions. If I see someone utilizing spray paint, you can be damn sure I'll get video and photos and tank my hike to get their License Plate. I've scrubbed too many damn arrows off of rocks and it pisses me off. Same goes for carvers, illegal fires and wildlife harassers. I do what I can do if it comes to that, but I'm not out there to be a policeman either.