HikeArizona.COM

Am I the only one who is disappointed in our land managers at Tonto NF over the last few years?

Wagon Wheel Tragedy
complicit in the land swap that will lead to the destruction of Oak Flat
Woodbury debacle
Failure to manage stray horses that are destroying the Salt River ecosystem
Arbitrary forest closures for fire prevention and then reopening them after literally no significant precipitation events (glad that higher humidity is doing its part to fight the half a dozen out of control fires currently raging across Tonto NF)
Ridgeline Fire, no boots on ground for a week, fire is now racing unchecked down western slopes of Supes
Arbitrary ban on bolts in Tonto NF this spring with zero input from stakeholders and zero research or justification for the ban
Zero enforcement of wilderness norms and general outdoor ethics at nearly every paid site with water access across NF

But, Lee, every time someone such as myself, who am I kidding I'm the only one, every time I talk about the need for management on public lands it's met with opposition from both sides. The right wing talks about how stupid it is to attempt to eradicate invasive exotic grasses in the Catalina Foothills specifically finger Rock Canyon, and the left extreme gets upset over everything from manage fires to any kind of management activity in wilderness areas. Then there is the almost universal belief that bombers dropping surfactant and bulldozers tearing everything up is perfectly acceptable in wilderness, if a flame should at all be involved. It goes to show you that virtually everyone in the public has the childlike mentality that a wilderness really is just an area with the name slapped on it with a pretty bow on the box. What?!? Benches are evil overreaches but the dropping of loads of chemicals is not? What twisted emotion-driven anti-logic is this?

Remember the enormous outcry on this website and then the general public for those horses. People love to rebrand something wild because it fits their mythology when they were just escaped feral horses. It's almost a mystery to me that people have not successfully rebranded all the feral cats at the Gilbert riparian preserve into wild cats, which would then somehow be deserving of protection.

Without knowing anything other than what you have stated about the ban on bolts, an arbitrary ban on bolts is keeping the status quo at zero instead of allowing something to happen and can be rescinded in the future. Now we both know that bolts themselves don't really do much, but I'm willing to bet that there would be people who would/ slash their wrists, pull out their hair and set themselves on fire (just not in wilderness areas) to prevent a single bolt from ever being placed in a so-called wilderness.

While I do agree with you on not extending the Tonto Forest closure because of the lack of precipitation, or at least they should have only opened specific ranger districts which had received precipitation, it's my understanding that most of the fires have either been the result of vehicles on highway 87 or lightning and that no amount of forest closure or recreation limitation would have made a difference for these fires.

I have the unpopular opinion that what is going on in the rest of the country specifically in California is a little more important then people's pet place for recreation in Phoenix. There is absolutely nothing major that will last from this Ridgeline fire. The Rock will not change. The vegetation is limited enough that there is unlikely to be any severe erosion following a heavy rain, and most of what is burning and is also burning hot enough is essentially the shrub chaparral vegetation type and will respond very very quickly. Yes, Saguaro may die. While it is a shame to see some of our old cactus go, get used to it. I'm not being trite or belittling you, but the fact is the desert has changed and what we are seeing this year is really just what is to come. 2020 is probably just the turning point or inflection in the curve for areas below 3 to 4000 feet in elevation for fire and ecosystem changes in much the same way other prior years have been for all the other areas that burned in the state over the last 20 to 30 years with lasting, and mostly irreversible ecological changes thanks to over a century of human alterations.

As far as the lack of law enforcement at recreation sites, that I don't agree with but you know that's usually a funding issue. I'm all for discipline.

You knew I would take the bate on this one.

@Jim_H
I nearly agree with everything you said, more to add later, lol.

I don't understand some of the things listed here:

How is the wagon wheel tragedy the NFs fault? People were swimming in a creek that flash flooded. The NFS cannot "lifeguard" the shoreline of hundreds of miles of waterways waving red flags and yelling at people not to swim in the water on every day rain is predicted. If people do not pay attention to the weather and die in a flash flood, I fail to see how it is anything but the swimmers' own fault. There are no lifeguards on duty and I don't want to see tax money going to the NFS staffing lifeguards or automated weather monitoring/air-siren systems throughout waterways on the forest service.

How are the horses "destroying" the Salt River ecosystem - a river system already unnatural due to the dams above, overrun by non-native tamarisk, and daily feces in, peed in, and filled with beer cans and discarded plastic trash by drunk tubers?

How do you propose fighting the ridgeline fire with boots on the ground - it is vastly unsafe to force people to climb up to the top of the ridgeline in 115 degree weather carrying heavy fire-fighting equipment. What type of super-humans do you expect the forest service to deploy? Or perhaps you wanted them to slurry bomb it, which is not boots on the ground? It is a naturally caused fire burning in the wilderness. It is supposed to be managed as a wild area without the use of mechanical equipment. Do you not recognize that fire is natural, just like sun and wind and rain? Do you not recognize that slurry bombers constitute mechanical equipment? Do you not recognize the risk to any firefighter you would be proposing to dispatch to the ridgeline that would likely die of heat stroke? There was no risk to structures or homes when the fire burned on the top of the mountain, which is the only reason I know of that allows for violation of the mechanical interference policy. So, why is it a failure of the NFS? Because they care about the lives and well-being of the firefighters?

Why do you claim zero enforcement of norms and ethics? I have personally witnessed, in the last 15 years of enjoying Arizona outdoors, two instances of a ranger enforcing rules/ethics and issuing a fine to (randomly encountered) people violating the rules. I have also have reliable reports of people, including some HAZ members, fined for violating national park (not Tonto FS) recreational usage rules. Considering how I tend to avoid other people at all costs, yet witnessed these incidents, it seems the rate of enforcement is far greater than zero. Perhaps the question should be: Why is there such an overwhelming amount of people in the forests that blatantly ignore the rules and ethics of responsible recreation? Perhaps the only failing of the NFS is in education of the masses? I do agree there could be more enforcement, but I believe it is far more than zero, just not enough compared to the widespread number of people breaking the rules. But that is a cost tradeoff- the more enforcement, more money towards education, the less trail maintenance, etc.

The finalization of the bolting policy in the Tonto NF, if I correctly understand your reference, was a public discussion initiated about 2 years ago, unless you are referring to a different bolting policy. I personally input my public comments that disagreed with an outright ban on bolting and proposed they evaluate adopting the policy used in the McDowell Park regarding bolting. So there was a public comment period and public communication. I do agree that if they finalized the policy banning bolting, that I partially disagree with that decision. I would be interested in their justification, and they would seem to need to produce a justification report summarizing the results of the public comments and the statistics/justification for their final decisions. Would appreciate a link/reference to this matter.

friendofThundergod wrote: ↑Aug 27 2020 12:11 pm Wagon Wheel Tragedy
complicit in the land swap that will lead to the destruction of Oak Flat
Woodbury debacle
Failure to manage stray horses that are destroying the Salt River ecosystem
Arbitrary forest closures for fire prevention and then reopening them after literally no significant precipitation events (glad that higher humidity is doing its part to fight the half a dozen out of control fires currently raging across Tonto NF)
Ridgeline Fire, no boots on ground for a week, fire is now racing unchecked down western slopes of Supes
Arbitrary ban on bolts in Tonto NF this spring with zero input from stakeholders and zero research or justification for the ban
Zero enforcement of wilderness norms and general outdoor ethics at nearly every paid site with water access across NF

@nonot

automated weather monitoring/air-siren systems throughout waterways on the forest service.

I think nearly every waterway in Arizona has some sort of weather monitoring or flash flood measuring system on them. Here is a pic of one that I believe is probably inside the Mazzie wilderness boundary [ photo ] . I do not think that anyone who has passed Wagon Wheel on a Saturday would claim an automated warning system would detract from the natural experience there. Likewise, I think some have argued that the forest service could have done more to warn people of the impending doom down stream due to the fact that the entire watershed upstream had been knowingly scorched earlier in the year, a perfect situation to create the deadly conditions that yes I do not believe all regular outdoor rec enthusiast should have known about. Not even saying I blame Tonto, but its fair to point out, I believe.

And I keep hearing this argument "natural caused fire let it burn." The bottom line is we have created unnatural conditions in our mountains, forests and deserts, so to continue to apply this its natural let it burn philosophy is idiotic. Yes, I do think it is on the FS to revise previous policies on fire as we are no longer dealing with even remotely natural conditions in our deserts, in particular. Come on, you get outside enough to know that deserts are not suppose to burn like that man. The reasons the bottoms of cacti do not look like the bottoms of Ponderosa trees, is because they were never meant to survive fires like this. Allowing a wilderness to suffer 100 percent devastation based on some lazy man argument that its natural is short sighted and negligent. Also the ridgeline fire is not the first fire to burn in a tough to reach spot. Bottom line is they watched it burn for a week before even considering a type 1 management team.

In regards to the bolt ban “permanent fixed anchors or bolts for rock climbing and rappelling should be allowed only by prior written authorization, if demonstrated impacts to at-risk species, scenic integrity, cultural resources, or user-conflict concerns have been communicated to the public.”

So the same Tonto NF that gave away several thousand acres of land to build a mine that will kill the water table, destroy land permanently and leave a scar in the earth that will be here longer than us, now cares about "scenic integrity," just tarzan swing off on that one Tonto! What a bunch of BS, do not tell me that all of a sudden a 3/8 bolt buried in a rock 100 feet of the ground is now compromising scenic integrity, when your agency is pushing fires into wilderness areas and giving away public land to foreign mining companies...

Also you have good points, its just a poll, i'm not saying I am right or wrong, just curious what others think, thanks for input.

Isn't this like asking which deck chair on the Titanic is comfiest? What government agency provides exceptional management and stewardship without an explicit economic interest? Mt. Hood NF and many of the best run forests in the Pacific Northwest are well run within the context of timber production with recreational interests as a tertiary concern. The healthiest forests I have personally seen are those managed by Mendocino Redwoods and Stimson Lumber Company on the North Coast of California. Of course recreational activities and public access are severely curtailed. Most California state parks have high fees for access and feature clean bathrooms and well tended trash cans.

Does Arizona and more specifically the Tonto represent the quintessential 'Tragedy of the Commons'? Not in my opinion. Nonetheless there does exist a misalignment in the allocation of resources on the part of the National Forest relative to the high recreational usage next to the 5th largest metropolitan area in the United States. The Tonto is more 'park' than working forest and should be treated as such. Users should have responsiblities including use fees that are commensurate with having their skin in the game.

For the record, and those who are not paying attention since it isn't here in Maricopa County, or should I say Maricopa Country, the real 'Merica, there are numerous large fires in California. Now, depravity and sin of Hollywood aside, GOD IS PISSED! and he hurls fire and lightning at the forests and grasslands of California!. Sadly, in his efforts to purify the land, he smoketh out the skies, and stretcheth thin the resources. In other words, lots on fire, not a lot of men or equipment to go around.

So, a low priority fire that threatens very little, might get put out by rain, and isn't really going to do much anyway, well that can get a lower triage level, so the 300,000 acre fires elsewhere, and 12,000 acre fires can get the resources they need.

A small crew monitoring the fire with maybe a helitak crew to drop water on the fire as it descended the cliffs would be about the most one might expect. Otherwise, the network of trails should be more than enought to contain the fire if it manages to burn across the base, as it may.

I only feel like taking the time tonight to debate this point:

friendofThundergod wrote:I think nearly every waterway in Arizona has some sort of weather monitoring or flash flood measuring system on them. Here is a pic of one that I believe is probably inside the Mazzie wilderness boundary [ photo ]. I do not think that anyone who has passed Wagon Wheel on a Saturday would claim an automated warning system would detract from the natural experience there. Likewise, I think some have argued that the forest service could have done more to warn people of the impending doom down stream due to the fact that the entire watershed upstream had been knowingly scorched earlier in the year, a perfect situation to create the deadly conditions that yes I do not believe all regular outdoor rec enthusiast should have known about. Not even saying I blame Tonto, but its fair to point out, I believe.

The time from detecting the flash flood upsteam to a warning downstream, in this case might be...maybe 5 minutes??

Let's say the forest service did install flashing lights and sirens in the area of the swim hole to warn people of the danger. With the amount of rednecks in this state that shoot at trees, cactus, road signs, and anything else, I'd give the lights/sirens a lifespan of maybe two weeks to a month surviving in such a heavily visited area without a designated official policing the area keeping people from vandalizing things. So now the taxpayers have to pay to maintain that system which gets destroyed by the ignorant public masses. And that is one swimhole. Where would it end? What other swimholes would need such a system that invariably gets vandalized by the miscreants otherwise known as the average American citizen?

And furthermore, as you state, the water monitoring stations are all online, and can already be freely checked by the public. One idea that I do agree with is that some web developer, such as a web developer that built a great hiking website, a smartphone hiking app, that already ingests public weather data from other sites, might already have the scripts/skills to be able to scan the water monitor website data to create audio alerts on their phones to anyone detected to be in the area when a water monitor indicates a flash flood in the area. Perhaps that developer could even charge a bit of money for creating/selling such an invention...or get some government grant to develop it in the interest of public safety. The only downside is that those actually swimming have likely left their phones on shore, but they might still hear them I'd think.

(Edited for grammar/wording)

I found this on the tonto website from their draft 2019 plan. It is only the draft plan and I've not located the "finalized" rules:

"Where rock climbing is an appropriate recreational activity, permanent fixed anchors or bolts for
rock climbing and rappelling should be allowed only by prior written authorization, if demonstrated
impacts to at-risk species, scenic integrity, cultural resources, or user-conflict concerns have
been communicated to the public, and there are no other safe means of descent available and
the area is impassable by the use of removable anchors. "

Doesn't read like a ban on bolting to me, it says you need written permission and it needs to be in an area appropriate for rock climbing, and can't put bolts near nests of endangered species or bolt on top of petroglyphs which both seem to be reasonable restrictions. The written permission is a bit annoying, but it's not a ban. Is there a newer/different version?

@nonot
Tonto NF closed the area around Water Wheel after the flood for the remainder of the summer monsoon due to potential danger to the public. But not before it. That action did not require any gauges, flashing lights, sirens, or any other infrastructure/shooting targets. Only an understanding of the situation on the ground and the potential risks.

FWIW, I do not personally support public safety closures and I wish the general public could use the data available to make safe decisions for their own well-being.

Which does not change the sequence of actions taken by TNF.

@Jim_H Although I don’t wanna detract from topic with a stray horse rant, that is one point I do sympathize with Tonto to some degree on now. That Salt River horse group has the people that use the public lands and the NF held hostage right now over these stray horses. That group is basically on the same lines as an anti vaxer group. A bunch of Facebook weirdos making up fake science who have no idea what is going on.

Federal biologist said several years ago that no more than 35 horses should be along that stretch of river. Of course the entirely unqualified group of horse lovers disagrees with this science, which I do see some irony in, as they seem to be a generally left leaning type, you know the ones who usually use science to prove their points? I guess you only use science when it supports your opinion, lol. Oh also in 2017 the world science journal said there are zero wild horses left in the world today, the horsey people disagree with this science too, lol.

Currently there are nearly 500 stray horses on the Salt. and despite assurances that the horses would only be fed during times of drought, etc, they are now being fed all year. You can’t even walk by their feeding sites, the horse maul you looking for handouts, they chase your dogs, etc. But the horsey people are good at PR, so they have thousands of weirdo supporters believing these horses belong to the great line of desert stallions that have roamed these deserts for millennial, lol. And because of that, it is now ensured that a precious waterway in the desert and fragile ecosystem will one day be destroyed by these stray horses.

I say if they wild, open up a season on them. I don’t care for hunting, but I’ll help cull the heard in the name of conservation, let’s let the coyotes eat!

Does this rant put me near the feral cats of the Gilbert preserve status?

500?! I wonder if it ever computes with these people that fed animals are not wild? We had a thread on horse, too, once, and I recall that other than people loving them I would never hear a positive thing about them.

i would just like to avoid hitting one with my car

Interesting that Inciweb removed the fire perimeter for this fire.

@pixelfrog
I noticed that also

@Jim_H Right by the way that number is not exaggeration one source says over 400 and I believe the horsey people say 522. After assuming control of the horse management and after all their false bs promises the salt river horse management group has literally failed to cull the hose population by even one. Now there is an out of control population of stray horses that rely on daily artificial feeding to survive being boarded on public lands paid for by tax payer dollars.

I spent an afternoon researching this issue from every angle, because I was unsure if I was being too harsh on the horsey people group and to be honest I was trying to see if the horses were playing a role in the spreading do the invasive grasses that led to the devastating fires in the area this summer.

I found nothing that points to the horses role in the spreading of invasive grasses for the record. But there is also exactly zero scholarly articles that support any of the opinions of the Salt River Horse MGMT group. Literally there is nothing written that supports the opinion the horses are wild or the opinion that the horses are not destroying that fragile ecosystem. The only thing on the horsey page is flowery captions about the horses and all the cute names they have give their pets along the salt.

That group is currently running the biggest con in the SW. I mean GTFO are you telling me there is a sane biologist in the world who would claim that the Salt River can support a population of 500 horses?

@trekkin_gecko
If you hit one, you would be doing more to cull the herd than the management group has done in ten years.

@friendofThundergod
"The horsey people" has got me laughing this morning. They are a cult and one with lots and lots of money. At least they have a name I can live with now.