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From time to time I have read some forum posts that make reference to Boy Scouts - mostly in a negative manner. I was wondering how everyone feels about them.

I know that it can sometimes be a downer to be out on a trail and come across a herd of noisy teens, but on the other hand I am in full support that gets teens off their butts, out from in front of the TV and Play Station and in to nature.

While the boyscouts do have good and bad points I would say that the good of getting kids away from the playstation for a little while vastly out-weighs the bad of encountering a group of them on the trail. They also provide a lot of community service, both in the city and out. In addition to this, those youngsters are learning stewardship of our natural lands. Those sorts of skills are not readily obtainable outside organizations like the boyscouts. I would rather put up with a dozen teens on the trail than have a dozen adults in the forest who don't know the first thing about them.

Its usually the boy scount leader that gets in trouble.

Matt makes some very good points in his prior post. Being a father of two boys in Scouts (one Boy
and one Cub scout), I have only good things to say about the organization. The Mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. I've been active in the program for quite a while as a outdoor coordinator and leader for backpacks. We spend a lot of time teaching boys outdoor skills, outdoor ethics, leadership, teamwork, leave no trace principles, etc.. I can fully understand someones complaint about a bunch of noisy boys. Being noisy and having a good time is ok, as long as you remember to respect others around you and the outdoors. If a lack of respect is present, then those are times when the leadership needs to step in. What I really have a problem with is adults who are poor role models to their children or youths around them. I have seen too many cases in the outdoors of adults making poor choices. Most Boy Scouts will never make Eagle (highest rank), but the character building, values and skills they are instilled with, will be with them for a lifetime. Quality family time goes a long way and in addition, solid programs through your local church, Scouts, schools, YMCA, sports, etc., can build a solid foundation for a lifetime. Personally I haven't seen too many negative issues about the Boy Scouts.
Thx, Mark
(Scout Motto - "Be Prepared")

What I really have a problem with is adults who are poor role models to their children or youths around them.

I'm with you there. I don't really have a problem with noisy kids. That's a kid. I think we could start a long thread if we wanted to recount tales of bad Scout Leadership we've seen. That would be my negative comment and it would scare me to entrust my child to some of the leaders I've seen. I don't mean to paint Scout Leaders with too broad a brush. I'm sure there are many excellent folks out there. I guess it's the bad examples that tend stick out in your mind.

Second Class Scout, still use the compass.

jmangum wrote:From time to time I have read some forum posts that make reference to Boy Scouts - mostly in a negative manner. I was wondering how everyone feels about them.

I know that it can sometimes be a downer to be out on a trail and come across a herd of noisy teens, but on the other hand I am in full support that gets teens off their butts, out from in front of the TV and Play Station and in to nature.

I can speak from my experience with my sons troop. They are an excellent group of young men. We have no discipline problems, and they respect the outdoors and each other. Also, they follow leave-no-trace while out on the trail. It sure beats those kids in front of the TV all weekend. Yea they are loud on the trail, but they never get enough camping and backpacking. They are ready to ge every weekend. My son loves all the out doors stuff which he didn't before bridging to scouts.

My son is a Life Scout, and I couldn't be more proud.

I'm surprised that this even comes up as a topic. Are the Boy Scouts a good thing? Have you looked around the country lately? These are some of the few groups left that teach kids such lofty life principles as: integrity, leadership, honesty, trust, goal setting, respect, teamwork, leadership (have I missed anything?). I think focusing on the 'outdoors' piece of the scouts really misses what that orginization is really about...helping to turn young boys into young men. As for the 'noisy herds of kids'...have we forgotten what being a kid is? I hope they have all the fun they can out on the trails!

Scouts is a great thing for our youth. This program has taught my son and I many things and brought an appreciation of the outdoors that we didn't have before. Granted as a group we can be a bit noisy but, that is just the kids having fun. I have to check when there is no noise. Leadership makes a big difference in Troops and it is tough to find adults who are knowledgeable about the outdoors and are willing to step up. I am thankfull my sons troop has some good leaders.

My best friend is an Eagle Scout, and I've relied upon his outdoor knowledge for years... he is a wonderfully skillful "outdoorsman" and has taught me most of what I know. As a teacher I have certain skills/talents that lend themselves well to managing kids. We've both been trip leaders in college. Together we'd make a great set of troop/den leaders. . . Our wives would love for us to get involved with scouts...we've talked about it several times...and can't...on principle. We don't agree with the Scouts policy toward gays. It's not right, and it's discriminatory. I know, I know, they are a private organization and can set their own rules, and that's their choice. But I have a hard time with the idea of supporting an organization with that type of attitude toward people.

So, I guess my answer would be that although scouts are good in theory, in practice, not so much...

I know one thing. They are downright horrible at Fossil Springs, they trample every thing in site and leave fire pits full of melted plastic. It seems to me that at least one troop would take the initiative to clean up. I guess there is too much to pack out.

I was a Boy Scout and my father was out troop leader for many years even after I was on to other things. There are a few problems I have seen over the last few years that makes me wonder about the Boy Scout leadership though.

1. Almost all troops in my area a affiliated with a church. I have my oldest son who has joined the troop within a Morman church, but they have made it clear to my ex-wife that I'm not welcome since I'm not part of the church. I'm agnostic.

2. The objection I saw to a homosexual being a troop leader. He had been one for a few years according to the report and all of a sudden when he admited his orientation he was no longer desirable. This I don't understand.

As you can tell I have a personal problem with what's going on with my ex-wife, but I don't understand why they don't want a father around that wants to be around and has the necessary skills.

If someone could direct my to a troop around the Glendale area let me know.

DoFear wrote: Almost all troops in my area a affiliated with a church. I have my oldest son who has joined the troop within a Morman church, but they have made it clear to my ex-wife that I'm not welcome since I'm not part of the church. I'm agnostic.

I grew up in mesa and had a similar problem with the LDS church and their hold on the Boy Scouts in the area. As a kid I always wanted to be in the scouts. I went with friends from school to meetings on occasion, but the more interested I got in joining, the more it was made clear to me that in order to really be part of the group I would also need to part of the mormon church. As a result I never became a scout. I still think they do a lot of good for kids, but if you ever hear me complaining about the scouts this is probably why. I know in other areas (and other churches) this would not have been an issue. But for me it was, and it has slightly soured my view of the scouts.

As for homosexuals in the scouts, I disagree with the BSA's stance on the issue. It is wrong, but as mentioned earlier, they are a private organization and have the right to set their own rules. It is one more reason I probably won't affiliate with the group.

As a hiker who has encountered a few troops along the way....

1) Overall they come across as a enthusiastic & definitely noisy group -- but then put a bunch of adults together & a few brewskis we are just as noisy... I don't see areal issue with sharing the trail ...

2) As of messy campsites & burnt junk in firepit -- I will say they & their trip leads CLEAN UP. This is possibly my biggest gripe with scouts. I know they learn a whole lot about low-imapct camping but I usually don't see that practised

3) I usually enjoy stopping & talking to them...In fact I find the younger groups absolutely amazing in their knowledge & curiosity!

In response to what Matt said: I too have had the same experience with the Mormon Church when I lived in Sandy, UT, not only did they run the scouts in that area, but also they seemed to have control of every activity that a youngster may want to participate in. It's not so much that they have the desire to runs these activities and take part in their children’s organizations, I think that's great they are so involved with their children, it is just the judgmental feeling you get from them (in my experience here, I don't want to upset anyone)when many of them come up to you initially, asking if you were Mormon, and when they found out that you weren't, they began trying minister to you, attempting to get you to come to their ward or stake (equivalent of a church), which is fine, but if you expressed that you had no desires for this, most (in my experience) wanted nothing to do with you, or little to do with you after this. The same things can be said for other religious affiliations, but in the Mormon community they support one another, and do try to monopolize the area in which they reside, becoming the teachers, police officers, doctors, and so forth in that area. Something could be said for that, I will say it is amazing how the Mormon community takes care of and supports their own, and has such strong family ethics, this is one reason the religion is so attractive to those who want those strong ideals in a world around us that has become so corrupt, with many individuals only concerned for themselves and not caring or reaching out to the people around them.

I do not wish to bash the Mormon's here, I grew up going to the Mormon ward every Sunday, my Step Father was Mormon, an excommunicated Mormon, but he still went to services, and so did the rest of my family. In fact my Mother and younger brother were baptized into the religion.

The scouts and the principles they teach are outstanding, there are problems in every organization, all-in-all scouts teach youngsters good morals and standards to live by, while teaching them skills and an appreciation of the land and the community we live in.

hoppy47m wrote:I know one thing. They are downright horrible at Fossil Springs, they trample every thing in site and leave fire pits full of melted plastic. It seems to me that at least one troop would take the initiative to clean up. I guess there is too much to pack out.

I must speak up for our Troop. We were at Fossil Springs the first weekend in May. The site we camped at was a mess when we arrived. There were two burnt camp chairs, beer cans, food wrappers, and the fire rind was full of glass. We arrived with 19 scouts, and 9 adults. Our scouts took it upon themselves to police the camp when we arrived, and before we left. It looked like a completely different campsite. This was something they did with out being prompted by the adults. Our Troop prides itself on leaving the campsite better then when we arrived.

Yes, we did pack out all the trash, broken glass, and the 2 camp chairs. We are not an LDS Troop, but are associated with another church. The church has no influence on the Troop and the boys run the Troop.

I wasn't going to post to this originally - but now I have to, I just can't NOT post.

I am an Eagle scout. I am also a member of the LDS church. I can only say: don’t throw away the whole bushel because of a few bad apples. My troop in Houston was run by my church, and was predominantly “Mormon” – but we also had 4 boys who were not members, and their fathers participated actively in the troop. None of them ever joined the church, none of them were ever told they weren’t welcome, and none of them ever felt unwelcome (as would be evidenced by their continuing activity in the troop and 3 of the 4 eventually becoming Eagles).
I have seen occasional LDS sponsored troops who have a rather exclusionary attitude, but by and large I would have to disagree with general stereotype. I have never been part of a troop like that, and if I ever am in one like that I will do everything in my power to change it.

However, it should also be noted that for the last few years the LDS church has slowly been distancing itself from the BSA. They have seen that the original standards of the BSA are being slowly eroded away and therefore the core strength of the organization is slipping away. They also see that the BSA may not be around forever, and have moved to introduce programs that can supply the same type of character and value building structure the BSA excelled at. The programs they have introduced have the same type of long term goals and structure (the “Duty to God” program for example), but focus more around the religion than around scouting so that scouting has essentially become a program for ages 12 – 14. After about 14 yrs you are more involved with the “Young Men” youth program than with scouting, although working towards achieving the goal of Eagle Scout is still encouraged (officially scouts over 14 are called Varsity scouts, then 16 – 18 are called Explorer scouts – the LDS church still adheres to that structure loosely, but it is a very loose affiliation). Scouting is becoming more of a background activity rather than a primary activity.

I can’t argue with anyone who doesn’t want to support the BSA because of their stance regarding homosexuals, it’s the BSA’s right to hold their position, as it is your right to agree or disagree with their stance. I will say no more.

Billy wrote:it is just the judgmental feeling you get from them (in my experience here, I don't want to upset anyone)when many of them come up to you initially, asking if you were Mormon, and when they found out that you weren't, they began trying minister to you, attempting to get you to come to their ward or stake (equivalent of a church), which is fine, but if you expressed that you had no desires for this, most (in my experience) wanted nothing to do with you, or little to do with you after this.

An unfortunate truth of mainstream LDS attitudes. However, it is recognized as being a problem and is being addressed vigorously by the church as a whole.

You will find, however, that LDS groups in non-traditional LDS areas (e.g.: Utah, Mesa) generally do not have that same attitude, or at least have it to a lesser extent. Why? Well, I think it is because, as with any group, when you have a majority, you tend to exclude the minority. That is humanity as well as religion.

I also have to note that I recieve the reverse of this all the time. As soon as it is discovered that I am a "Mormon" - some people instantly want nothing more to do with me. This generally happens not from people who have had a "bad experience" with the LDS church, but from people who disagree philosophically. It's a tad unnerving and more widespread than you would want to belive. Discrimination of any sort is always an ugly thing to be confronted by - either as self-realization or as victim.

UPDATE:
I have recieved a couple of PMs that prompted me to make a slight addition to this.

I have encountered MANY more people that have immediate respect and much higher expectations for me when they find out my religion. The rejections are almost inconsequential in comparisson to all those who fall into the other category. I did not mean to imply that I meet people who discriminate against me because of my religion on a daily basis or anything. It was a much more common thing when I was living in Texas and Brazil - it hardly ever happens here in Arizona (although for some bizzare reason it happens fairly often on campus at ASU - go figure).

ck1 wrote:We don't agree with the Scouts policy toward gays. It's not right, and it's discriminatory. I know, I know, they are a private organization and can set their own rules, and that's their choice. But I have a hard time with the idea of supporting an organization with that type of attitude toward people.

I applaud the Scouts for staying true to their values!

In our "feel good now" culture that seems to lack any sense of moral direction, where political correctness runs amuck, one that thrives on moral relativism...thank God we still have groups that stand for something. That hold true to their beliefs. That stand firm and say "This is not right, this goes against our values, we will not accept it".

As philosophically weak as moral relativism is, divine command theory has just as many loose ends. If you want to stick to beliefs more power to you, but lets not call one theory's weakness the other's strength. Both are, in the end, equally poor arguments.