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On page 150 of "Superstition Wilderness Trails East" it states the FS no longer puts mileage on signs. Anybody have any true inside info?
I wonder if it's only the Tonto?

Perhaps they get so many people with GPS calling in complaining? Kinda sad as I know from watching people post triplogs swearing by their GPS when it's absurdly off. A GPS route still must be combined with a real topo map to find an accurate medium.

The Ritas & GC have among the worst posted mileages I've witnessed from working data.

Could be because the signs are used as target practice?

Seriously though, I don't think I've seen any "new" signs on any trail I've hiked anywhere in AZ. And many of them have terrible mileages anyway. But when there WAS a sign before, and it is lost due to age, weather, or other means, I've not seen any be replaced either, so there is perhaps some truth to the report.

chumley wrote:I don't think I've seen any "new" signs on any trail I've hiked anywhere in AZ

I've seen quite a few over the years. Regardless of a highly critical PM by boxerjoey long ago I still enjoy watching the signs deteriorate over the years and photograph them often.

It also mentioned they stick to the beginning and end of trails. Though I think they'd save the Search and Rescue agony by putting a sign in Barks Canyon where Bluff Spring makes an abrupt right onto slickrock. Undoubtedly how Lela Frizzell was lost on this exact date seven years ago.

The FS sometimes gets active around here, puts up signs. Then the signs disappear or are vandalized. When talking to the local FS rec person, it seems they have extra signs in a shed somewhere. If they have an extra one of the one that's missing, they might get around to replacing it eventually. Or at least, they'll tell you they're working on it. I reported a vandalized sign several years ago, and they ignored me. I reported it again to the rec person, who said she'd not heard about my first report. Last time I checked, the sign was still in the same shape, in pieces on the ground. I think I'll fix it myself. Most of them don't hike the trails. It is hard to even tell them about trail junctions or places you've hiked because they don't know what you're talking about. They sure love driving around in those green trucks, though. Up and down Big Lake Highway all day long.

The FS mileages often don't agree with each other. For example, on the South Fork Trail, at the beginning it says it's 7 miles to Mexican Hay. Up a couple miles, a sign says it's two miles back to the TH, but only 4 miles to Mexican Hay. So one whole mile got lost in the ether somewhere, I guess. (6 miles is what my GPS says. And it's the older of the two signs is the one that says 6 miles. I tend to go with the older signs, if they still exist. I rarely agree with their latest trail mileages in their ranger district booklets, etc. And my hiking time agrees with 6 miles, too.)

I've noticed the FS signs are never more precise than the half mile. Funny how all the junctions fall to exactly the mile or half mile mark.

We (USFS & volunteers) changed out the signs in the Supers in the 1980's from mileage to non mileage. I had the old sign posted at the south end of Reavis Valley for many years above my homes front door entrance and basically it said Fireline Trail and Reavis Headquarters with the milage. It is now in the hands of the Superstition Mountain Museum but most likely is in storage. Ranger Greg Hansen had the one from the north end of the valley and I could never talk him out of it. The USFS reasoning for changing the signs is that they did not want to be liable for litigation if someone believed in the mileage posted, got into trouble on the trail and blamed the USFS for incorrect posted mileage.

And Ditto to Joe's remarks about the need for signs where hikers, backpackers and horseman most often miss the trail turns. I can think of a number of places in the Supers where they would be very helpful. I also took pictures of all the signs that I passed and I have most of them as 35 MM slides.

Good info

joe bartels wrote:

chumley wrote:I don't think I've seen any "new" signs on any trail I've hiked anywhere in AZ

I've seen quite a few over the years. Regardless of a highly critical PM by boxerjoey long ago I still enjoy watching the signs deteriorate over the years and photograph them often.

It also mentioned they stick to the beginning and end of trails. Though I think they'd save the Search and Rescue agony by putting a sign in Barks Canyon where Bluff Spring makes an abrupt right onto slickrock. Undoubtedly how Lela Frizzell was lost on this exact date seven years ago.

I've read that bears apparently chew on the signs for nutrition

That spot at Barks is misleading for sure, do you have a link to the story of Lela, I don't recall that??

The newer signs in the Catalinas lack mileage, as well. One example is the trail sign at Bobad Do'ag...

In Anza Borrego, Ca there is a labeled " Nude Wash" that sign was stolen so often they didn't place one there anymore.
Also the Hollywood and Vine street sign comes and goes.
I know in some of the Wilderness areas in Wyoming, Utah sign replacement is not including mileage, just the trail or place name.

Missing hiker Lela Frizzell:

http://hikearizona.com/phoZOOM.php?ZIP=3846

Missing but found Lela Frizzell:
http://www.hikingforums.net/forums/gene ... earch.html

joe bartels wrote:It also mentioned they stick to the beginning and end of trails.

I think that is what most people here would prefer, especially in Wilderness areas, signs only at trail intersections! If you can't hike without constant reminding signs that you are still on a trail, then stay out of the Superstitions and stick with South Mountain.

I would rather have no mileage than incorrect mileage. I've noticed that some places have mileage and others don't. Last hike I did on Crosscut the sign at the Broadway trailhead had mileage, and as far as I know the mileage it listed was fairly accurate.

SuperstitionGuy wrote: The USFS reasoning for changing the signs is that they did not want to be liable for litigation if someone believed in the mileage posted, got into trouble on the trail and blamed the USFS for incorrect posted mileage.

That just makes me kinda sick. Our blinking litigious society. Not that I actually want mileage on the signs, I don't really care one way or the other. I usually know what I'm doing long before I get to the sign. I just find the idea that it's someone else's fault that you got lost in the wilderness absurd.

I think that the signs should all be coded in a secret language that you have to take a course to learn. You get a little junior wilderness ranger decoder that enables you to figure out where you're going. Then we could control access to only those who could pass the test at the end of the class to get their decoder...

writelots wrote:That just makes me kinda sick. Our blinking litigious society.

writelots wrote:
I think that the signs should all be coded in a secret language that you have to take a course to learn. You get a little junior wilderness ranger decoder that enables you to figure out where you're going. Then we could control access to only those who could pass the test at the end of the class to get their decoder...

Wendy, don't throw your arms up in despair (pardon the pun), as we now do have that little junior wilderness ranger decoder.
It's called a GPS.

Now all we need to do is add a feature that disables their GPS if they aren't certified and registered HAZ users who have paid their volunteer dues to J. B. and his associates, who manage and monitor this website.
:GB:

I always take the mileages with a grain of salt anyway. I've seen signs off by a mile, which can make a big difference when the sun gets low in the sky. Sometimes a sign predates a route change, sometimes it just wasn't that accurate to begin with. Another pet peeve is a sign that shows a greater remaining distance than the one that preceded it. If it weren't for the arrow, I'd fear I was headed the wrong way. (OK, I don't always trust the arrow either; I've seen signs turned around, too.)

SuperstitionGuy wrote: Now all we need to do is add a feature that disables their GPS if they aren't certified and registered HAZ users who have paid their volunteer dues to J. B. and his associates, who manage and monitor this website.
:GB:

In response to SuperstitionGuy:
I'm down with game A

writelots wrote:junior wilderness ranger decoder

We could rig something like we had in the sandbox where you can only see certain traffic indicators with night vision equipment. There are some of those in the US already for use by FEMA so the precedent exists...

In all seriousness, I'd like to see the FS and NPS "beef-up" and simplify their language a little bit, in general. This goes especially for trail head signage. The boards at Finger Rock and other popular wilderness-area trails should have a separate sign that states the following in huge, 10" letters and all caps:

TURN AROUND AND GO BACK TO YOUR CAR AND DO THE FOLLOWING:
1) GET MORE WATER THAN YOU CURRENTLY HAVE
2) TAKE YOUR DOG HOME
3) LEAVE SOURCES OF IGNITION BEHIND (NO SMOKING)
4) TELL SOMEONE WHERE YOU ARE
ONCE YOU PASS THIS SIGN YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT BECOMES OF YOU - HELP WILL NOT BE IMMEDIATE.