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Question...anyone have any experience with inflatable kayaks? How well do they maneuver versus standard kayaks? I see they are typically less expensive and it's nice they fit into the trunk of a car (for us with little cars, like Civics). But never tried one and don't know if it's a waste of money?

Here's a sample one: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003659NYA?tag=hikearizona

Most are really inflatable canoes... and they really cannot be compared. They are an entirely different experience. A kayak is effectively a highly controllable water craft that allows you to exercise high levels of skill (or not) in various water conditions. You are encased in a large air bubble... a very protective environment. Once you've mastered the "roll", you are relatively safe in any water condition. Inflatables are fun, but they do not allow that high degree of skill application, and once flipped, leave you at the mercy of the water conditions... they are also slower. They do not require a lot of skill, and can bounce you through most Class 3 water situations... so, great for floating down big splashy waves. Most rivers in Arizona would be well suited for inflatable boats... I'm not sure if there are many if any Class 4 runs in the state...

imike wrote:I'm not sure if there are many if any Class 4 runs in the state...

Uhhh, Grand Canyon? Salt River?

I have several friends who are skilled at whitewater rafting and (not-so-skilled at hardshell kayaking) who would probably concur with imike--they all own inflatable kayaks in addition to their rafts. However, a boat made by NRS or other reputable manufacturer is going to be made of longer-lasting materials, etc. Seyvlor is known as the cheapest of the cheap. Make sure you bring along a patch kit!

Can you be more specific about what your intended use is? There are a lot of different types of kayaks for a lot of different applications. Are you going to use it on lakes only? Ocean? Rivers? Creeks? Class I whitewater? II-III? IV? The more specific you are, the better and more useful advice you can receive.

Looking for something on calm waters. Lakes, maybe Salt River in areas where it's calm. Need something lightweight that I can strap on the top of a Honda Civic with no problem.

I'm curious on a ballpark figure of how many miles an average guy could expect to get out on a lake in calm waters. For instance the average guy that takes on hiking outta the blue can generally do Horton which is about 8 miles easy grade.

joe bartels wrote:I'm curious on a ballpark figure of how many miles an average guy could expect to get out on a lake in calm waters.

8-10 miles is very realistic in a 12-14 foot day touring boat. 12-15 is managable with good conditions. 15 miles is easy in a high performance sea kayak. Average speed in my boat with no wind is 3.8-4.0 mph. A good headwind will drop that down to around 2.5-3.0 mph. I monitored my GPS to see the effects on a 10 mile Canyon Lake outing awile back.

I have no personal experience with inflatable kayaks. I would speculate that they are only good for short-range use on lakes with nothing beyond light wind. They work very well on mile to moderate rivers.

azbackpackr wrote:

imike wrote:I'm not sure if there are many if any Class 4 runs in the state...

Uhhh, Grand Canyon? Salt River?

Grand Canyon is mostly calm water... overall a Class 3 river... at extremely high water flow levels, might have a couple of Class 4 rapids. Salt is probably about the same.

...paddling miles per day really depend on the number of hours put in... and wind. My best day is a bit over 100 miles with a moderate level effort, in a touring kayak.

mj

ssk44 wrote:8-10 miles is very realistic in a 12-14 foot day touring boat. 12-15 is managable with good conditions.

That's not bad for a start, but I think those estimates pretty conservative unless you're talking about short days.

big_load wrote:I think those estimates pretty conservative unless you're talking about short days

Are you speaking from experience? Joe was asking what the "average" guy could do in a day. 15 miles will kick your butt on a lake unless it's dead calm all day and that almost never happens. The average guy will not do 15 miles. Being loaded up heavy with camping gear plays a roll in that also. Slowing your average speed and stretching your trip out over an entire day helps ease fatigue and could add some extra mileage. I have a friend that I have introduced into kayaking and have been working him into higher mileage days. We did 6 miles on our first day and he almost didn't make it back to the truck because of afternoon wind that came up. His upper body was destroyed.

Many people that kayak Lake Powell will typically head out from Wahweap and paddle to Labyrinth Bay and camp for the first day. That's only 12 miles. 12 miles on Lake Powell can either be peaceful and serine or the worst nightmare of your life.

imike wrote:My best day is a bit over 100 miles with a moderate level effort, in a touring kayak.

100 miles! If your average speed were 4 mph, which is very high for entire day on a lake, it would take 25 hours to do that.

ssk44 wrote:Are you speaking from experience? Joe was asking what the "average" guy could do in a day. 15 miles will kick your butt on a lake unless it's dead calm all day and that almost never happens.

Yes, I live on a lake and try to paddle every weekend when it's not too cold, so I might be slightly more efficient than average, although I don't think by much. In big winds like you might encounter on Lake Powell, I try to hug the shore, but I have done over 11 miles in whitecaps in the middle of a 10-day trip before.

You can always try renting and comparing first. Arizona Hiking Shack rents high-end inflatables. There's a guy in S/E valley who rents hard & inflatable kayaks...calls himself Captain Dan or something like that. You can also find rentals on Craigslist. Though, AHS has the best boats, pumps and rates. Try both on the lower Salt and see which you like better.

You might want to consider keeping an eye on Craiglslist for a used rigid kayak. If you're paddling on flat water or in wind, you'll enjoy it much more. Inflatables are not much fun in wind. A rigid kayak will also be easier to learn how to paddle straight. This will make your paddling much less tiring.

Also try Costco:

http://www.costco.com/Common/Search.asp ... lang=en-US

You can't beat a lifetime guarantee...

Inflatables are great for beginners paddling rivers. They're more stable and forgiving. If you ever want to paddle something like the Verde, (especially below Bartlett where it's narrow, has tons of strainers and rocks), I definitely advise against taking a cheap inflatable kayak like the one you linked.

I wouldn't worry about weight on the roof of your Civic. I've put a 10.5" NRS raft rigged with an oar frame on the roof of a Civic before. Not a dent or scratch (just put a blanket between the boat and roof). There's really no reason to strap an inflatable kayak to the roof of your car. Especially a cheap inflatable which will not stay very rigid when tied down. Inflatables roll up very easily and fit into your trunk.

Regardless of which boat you get the most important piece of gear for yourself and your kids will be PFDs.

Good luck!

imike wrote:

azbackpackr wrote:

imike wrote:I'm not sure if there are many if any Class 4 runs in the state...

Uhhh, Grand Canyon? Salt River?

Grand Canyon is mostly calm water... overall a Class 3 river... at extremely high water flow levels, might have a couple of Class 4 rapids. Salt is probably about the same.

...paddling miles per day really depend on the number of hours put in... and wind. My best day is a bit over 100 miles with a moderate level effort, in a touring kayak.

mj

The Grand Canyon is mostly calm until one goes through places like Lava Falls or Hermit http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ZIP=45107

big_load wrote:I have done over 11 miles in whitecaps in the middle of a 10-day trip before.

Lake Powell can really humble you in a kayak. I feel very small on that lake...

Jim Lyding wrote:

imike wrote:

azbackpackr wrote:

imike wrote:I'm not sure if there are many if any Class 4 runs in the state...

Uhhh, Grand Canyon? Salt River?



The Grand Canyon is mostly calm until one goes through places like Lava Falls or Hermit http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ZIP=45107

last time I floated Lava falls, was at an average water level... did it standing on my head... on a raft. It is really just a Class 3 rapid, and not a very complex one...

the 100 mile day was on a river with a moderate water flow... and quite a bit of the time was wasted turning and paddling upstream. It was non-stop paddling for 24 hours, in the course of a non-stop 70 hour paddling event... Texas Water Safari...very easy paddling pace since I knew it was non-stop for days...

ssk44 wrote:Lake Powell can really humble you in a kayak.

I've never paddled it, but that wouldn't surprise me. Being roughly parallel to the prevailing wind, its main body must be susceptible to waves, and narrower spots probably induce a nasty Venturi effect. The wind velocity profile near shore is probably also less advantageous than in heavily wooded areas.

Pros: compact, easy to store, easy to get in and out of, depending on model a fair amount of storage space in not a large ( long) boat.
Cons: If you have wind it'll suck paddling, tracking can be a pain vs hardshell, the possibility of poking a hole in it, not suitable for more serious rapids.

I have a Sea Eagle, kinda like a canoe, its' been dragged over lots of rocks and sticks and no holes yet. I purchased a Sevylor that ruptured a seam on it's first inflation, and sent it back.

I like my inflatable for what I want to do---oh, and do not have to register them; I have some stealth projects that I don't want a hardshell screaming I am going to the water, in the process.

I did about 70 miles down the Dirty Devil RIver in Utah in it, in 6 days, and had some walking and pulling the boat.

All of the above, I concur, except that in Arizona you no longer have to register a canoe or kayak as long as you have no motor on it. It used to be $10 a year but they did away with that back in the 90's.

I would not consider an inflatable for lake boating... just too many negatives. For river floating, they can be handy... but, a rigid kayak or canoe can serve such a broader service. It ends up being more defined by your need. With an open canoe, you can throw a bike in... boat for a few days, ride back to your car: self shuttle! Rigid boats require more skill... inflatables are fun...

I've got a 2-man Sea Eagle 330 inflatable, took it down the standard Lower Salt run early this morning (Water Users put-in, Granite Reef takeout, about 4 hours at a very leisurely pace and about 1200 CFS flow). It handles Class 2 easily (just kind of plows right through), and while its certainly not super-maneuverable like a 1-man hardshell, its not like driving a supertanker either. Rear skegs keep it tracking straight. Never had a puncture (but I wouldn't take it down runs with lots of brush or potential strainers either). Best part is I can fit the kayak, two breakdown paddles, two inflatable seats and the foot pump all in a 6000 cubic inch backpack and haul it just about anywhere (about 40 pounds total). I can also strap a couple of drybags on the front and rear and do a comfortable overnight camping trip in it too. On still water its not fast by any means, but 10 miles on a reasonably calm lake is easily doable. Overall a good option (relatively low cost, high portability and quite comfortable to sit in), especially if you don't need high performance.