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Who will issue the penalty when the park is closed?
Posted: Aug 03 2011 2:45 pm
by joebartels
In another topic about "Night hikes" chumley mentioned penalties for being in the parks after they close.
I'm curious as to who will issue the penalty...
In July I noticed a Phoenix Preserves ranger closing the restrooms at 6:20pm. So I couldn't help but ask "doesn't the park close at 7pm". He said the restrooms close at 6pm, the gates close at 7pm and the park closes at 11pm. I kindly said that's friggen ridiculous (okay it was along those line in a less kind way, I felt bad later if that helps
)
Then he mentioned (poor guy didn't know when to shut up, he was just fueling my verbal whip) "it's the cutbacks man", talk to bla bla bla
So I dig in saying what a bunch of baloney. Simply schedule accordingly. It's not one person opening/closing all the gates and there isn't a ranger here for a majority of the day anyhow.
I really admired this guy for putting up with an idot like myself expressing my views (enraged venting) towards him since he's in charge of enforcing not creating policies. I'm in a twelve step program to work on this, though I'm a little nervous as I noticed Alston is the mentor.
At any rate, if they can't afford a ranger to close a gate at 11pm who's going to be monitoring overnight?
I take it this would be nearby residents calling the police? Do they really tie up public safety in that manner?
Re: Who will issue the penalty when the park is closed?
Posted: Aug 03 2011 4:03 pm
by Nighthiker
Not sure who calls but a lot of folks show up.
Re: Who will issue the penalty when the park is closed?
Posted: Aug 03 2011 4:10 pm
by Jim
My guess is that the closure is less about kicking out hikers and more about preventing overnight camping and squatters from setting up in the park. What time is the park open in the AM, and who says someone up early hiking before work is in violation if the sun starts to light the horizon at 0430 in the morning in June?
Re: Who will issue the penalty when the park is closed?
Posted: Aug 03 2011 4:26 pm
by joebartels
good point
There are usually several in South Mtn and Squaw before they open which the ranger drives right by their cars. I've never heard of or seen a ranger ticket anyone already in the park at open.
Several have said you can camp in the White Tanks if you advise them ahead of time, of course that's county too.
Figure this is just one of those in case it's needed policies. I've seen them enforce it at South Mountain on the 4th of July years ago.
Re: Who will issue the penalty when the park is closed?
Posted: Aug 03 2011 4:31 pm
by chumley
I do think that the rules are often there as a technicality. If you are in a closed park and not causing any kind of disturbance (drinking, being loud, camping, having a fire, etc.) it seems unlikely that you would have any problem. But you COULD.
In Tempe, the parks are managed by rangers who have the ability to write citations. I tend to agree with your assessment that they don't work overnight. I think that's where Tempe Police take over. But probably only when called by somebody.
As an example, there's a park near my house, and while I am aware that the signage explicitly prohibits walking a dog off-leash, I have been know to do so anyway if the park is empty. I've also had a park ranger drive by while walking Kai off-leash and had him stop and issue me a warning. But I've also had off-leash interactions with Tempe Police in the same park on numerous occasions without a single comment about the leash.
The same is true with beer. Technically you need a permit in the park, and we've played volleyball on Sunday afternoon with a courtside cooler on plenty of occasions. Park rangers will approach and ask, police will not. They have better things to do.
Is it the same in PHX parks? Camelback, South Mtn, etc.? I can't say.
Re: Who will issue the penalty when the park is closed?
Posted: Aug 03 2011 4:37 pm
by juliachaos
I doubt the police would do much about it, at least in the Phoenix Preserves area. Technically, it's only okay to park outside the gate there until 7pm. I saw a cop stop in there once around 9pm and asked him if anyone ever tickets the cars parked in the lot that late. He told me that he only ever showed up for safety reasons and that he's never ticketed a car there and doesn't plan on it. He also said that to his knowledge, he was the only cop going into the area that late. I doubt he or any other cop would waste time going up and onto the trail unless they had clear reason to do so, i.e. someone getting hurt. At that point, it's probably up to them if they decide to actually fine someone for being there after hours.
It seems to me that they would "close" the parks at night mostly for safety reasons due to the easy access to such a large population. Take into account all the injuries that have occurred on both Camelback and Squaw just during the day. As for closing the bathrooms so early, I also don't understand why they wouldn't just wait one more hour and close at the same time as the gate. I doubt the rangers just sit around the park all day. As a former parks worker up in Iowa, I found it much easier to go to each park once and shut down everything at the same time, than to take two trips to get the job done. Just a waste of time, energy, and money. If they were still closing the parks late instead of at 7pm, this lapse in time would be far more understandable.
Re: Who will issue the penalty when the park is closed?
Posted: Aug 03 2011 6:02 pm
by Al_HikesAZ
I'm not a lawyer, but this looks like the applicable law.
http://library.municode.com/HTML/13485/ ... LEPAUNFACO
Sec. 24-51. - Operation and parking of vehicles in parks; posting and exemptions; penalties.
A.No person shall drive any vehicle within a park except upon paved roads or drives or in paved parking areas, or in other areas authorized as parking areas by the Director or the Director's designees.
B.No person shall park or stand a vehicle in a park except within a designated space in a designated parking area, or in other areas authorized as parking areas by the Parks Director or the Director's designees. No person shall stop, park or leave standing any vehicle, whether attended or unattended, upon the shoulder or berm of any road or drive within a park except in case of a medical emergency or unless the vehicle is disabled. No person shall park or stand a vehicle in a parking area of a park during the hours that the park is posted as closed unless authorized to do so by the Parks Director or the Director's designee. emphasis added
C.The prohibitions of this ordinance, concerning driving, parking and standing, shall be conspicuously posted near all entrances to any park. The prohibitions of this ordinance shall not apply to persons exempted by the Director or the Director's designees, or to persons performing work which is authorized by a lease with the City of Phoenix or concession agreement with the Board and which is performed at the direction of the lessee or concessionaire.
D.A person who is convicted of a violation of Subsection A of this section is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor and shall be sentenced to pay a fine of not less than one hundred dollars and to perform not less than eight hours of community service under the supervision of the Department. The Court shall not suspend any part or all of the imposition or execution of any sentence required by this Subsection.
E.A person who violates Subsection B of this Section is subject to a Civil Sanction. The Court shall impose:
1.A minimum Civil Sanction of not less than fifty dollars if the Court finds that the person violated Subsection B by parking or standing a vehicle less than ten feet from a paved road or drive, or paved parking area, or any other authorized parking area, or by parking or standing a vehicle other than within a designated space in a designated parking area.
2.A minimum Civil Sanction of not less than one hundred dollars if the Court finds that the person violated Subsection B by parking or standing a vehicle ten feet or more from a paved road or drive, or paved parking area, or any other authorized parking area. The Court shall not suspend any part or all of the imposition or execution of any sanction required by this Subsection.
F.For the purposes of this Section, "vehicle" means any motor-powered or self-propelled vehicle, except a motorized wheelchair, bicycle or animal-drawn conveyance.
(Ord. No. G-5144, § 2, adopted 4-16-2008, eff. 5-16-2008)
Sec. 24-54. - Order to leave park; unlawful failure to comply.
The Director or designee may order any person who has violated any park rule, regulation or stipulation of usage or any other Federal, State or Local Law to immediately leave the park in which the violation occurred. No person may remain in a park or return to such park on the same day after such person has been ordered to leave the park.
(Ord. No. G-5144, § 2, adopted 4-16-2008, eff. 5-16-2008)
You could try carrying a Get out of Jail Free card from a Monopoly game. Or you could drive down to 620 West Washington Street and make a citizen's arrest of yourself.
Re: Who will issue the penalty when the park is closed?
Posted: Aug 03 2011 9:04 pm
by Dave1
juliachaos wrote:As for closing the bathrooms so early, I also don't understand why they wouldn't just wait one more hour and close at the same time as the gate. I doubt the rangers just sit around the park all day.
At Piestewa, I've noticed they'll close the bathrooms first and then go around and empty the trash barrels. Then they'll sit in their truck and wait by the gait until 7pm on the dot to close it. Although tonight the bathrooms and gate were still open after 7pm (good thing too 'cause i was late).