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To the people who wrote in the trailhead register at Escudilla today, "the first part of the hike is still beautiful, but the upper part is a tragedy" maybe you should take a science class. Read a book about fire ecology sometime. Read something, anyway. Stop watching Disney movies. Get some reality. Learn something.

Couldn't you SEE the new aspens coming up? The fire was
NOT a TRAGEDY!

Where were you when even the stupid people who read the news on TV figured out that scientists and the forest service have found that fire is necessary and good? Watching "Bambi"? Couldn't you see under the burnt trees all the ferns and aspens and grasses and flowers coming up? These provide a lot more food for animals than the doghair thickets of conifers that existed before. Yes, even Bambi will eat better now.

I don't think any trailhead comment has ever angered me more.

Liz, stay positive. Being negative makes people shun you.

Actually, the FS and scientists pretty much always knew fire was a part of the forest, it was the industrial minds that shunned it as it has negative impacts on production.

Fun in the shun.

I understand and to a large extent support your POV. But don't forget 'wallow' was human caused and was the biggest fire in AZ history (unfortunately, partly due to historical FS mismanagement).
I'm rather fond of Mazatzal wilderness but I understand the need for renewal. However, I don't think that in the last 30+ years there was much mismanagement in the Maz (i may be wrong but I don't remember any massive fire suppressions) and perhaps longer than that?
Final note: I'm sad that Club Cabin is no more. It was a cool place.

I hear ya, Liz! The tragedy is that our forests were mismanaged to the point that when it did catch fire, it took off like a rocket.

Thanks for posting your photos, I wasn't sure I was going to have the courage to go up there. Now I think I will when I'm back in the area.

Kate

Meh. To me, the tragedy is simply the fact that our forests have been 'managed' at all. I'm still of the opinion that nature has managed itself just fine for longer than we've existed as a species, and will continue to do so without us. Let it burn, crank up the Bloodhound Gang song to match, and let the forest renew itself without trying to justify the (costly and ineffective) existence of some bureaucratic machine in Washington.

Thoreau wrote:Meh. To me, the tragedy is simply the fact that our forests have been 'managed' at all. I'm still of the opinion that nature has managed itself just fine for longer than we've existed as a species, and will continue to do so without us. Let it burn, crank up the Bloodhound Gang song to match, and let the forest renew itself without trying to justify the (costly and ineffective) existence of some bureaucratic machine in Washington.

While I'm tempted to agree, I worry about what would inevitably come if we didn't manage them at all. I'll admit indulging in fantasies about Catalina Highway sliding off the mountain never to be repaired. Trouble is, next time I hiked to the summit instead of finding gaudy McMansions I'd find "clandestine" dope grows, illegal mining, logging, squatters, several meth labs in the making, the rainbow people's international headquarters and ufo landing site, and who knows what the heck else. These things all share one common facet - they're far less desirable than an annoying highway stuffed with fat rich people on their motorcycles or in their luxury cars on the weekend that I almost never see from where I hike, anyway! :bigth:

I don't think the original post was negative at all--I am happy to see someone who is passionate about this subject. I retired five years ago from a career in fire management, so share her feelings. I think that the AZT association needs to do more public education on fire in the ecosystem--take advantage of the trail going through the old burns to put up a sign, or at least talk about it in the guidebook. The message could be one of fire prevention for human caused fires and explaining Arizona fire ecology for lightning caused fires. One caveat to hands off management of the land--there are too many houses and people near the wildlands now. I managed lightning fires for resource benefit in California and in Alaska. The main impediment to letting a totally natural fire regime exist was the existence of subdivisions and cabins. And if the area being managed was large, like in Alaska, smoke drifting into towns of irascible citizens who could care less about natural fire regimes was a show stopper. Also--not only has the build up of fuels from long time fire suppression made fires more catastrophic, but a hotter and drier climate is making fires larger and harder to manage. In many places, like in Alaska, the warming climate will preclude return of species that existed before fire and will cause a vegetation "type" change. I still support managed fires, but I think people lose the nuances to the "let burn" argument.

As for being negative, I think my pal Jim was just funning...

azbackpackr wrote:As for being negative, I think my pal Jim was just funning...

I know when I think of a ray of sunshine, you always come to mind.

Yeah. MEOW!

I was on Escudilla middle of last week, exploring the southern end mostly, poking around old logging roads and exploring ridges. The aspen were regenerating like crazy and the unburned groves down below on the east face were seeding up into the burn area. When the wind blew the aspen cotton drifting in the air looked like a snow blizzard. In places the cotton made the ground look like it had recently hailed, all white to a depth of an inch or more. There was grass, several variety of ferns, and gooseberry bushes coming back, even a few old growth pine, fir, and spruce left in the steep places where the loggers couldn't get to them. They will be the seed sources for the next generation of conifers on the mountain once the grass and the aspen have had a chance to work the soil a bit. I saw elk, deer, and turkey back in the burn area as well as dozens of other kinds of birds and insects.

As azbackpackr said, not a tragedy. Not a tragedy at all. These mountains and forests are changing, maybe for the worse, maybe not. We are in a kind of uncharted territory now, what with climate change and all that implies coming down the pike. I suspect these mountains are aligning themselves with that coming new reality and the ones burning now will be the first ones to greet that future.

WHile I can see the side from the 'cabin owners' viewpoint of allowing fires to run their natural courses, at what point does it become THEIR financial responsibility to pay for such management instead of mine? If I choose to build/live where there are known threats, then I am assuming that responsibility. It isn't every taxpayer's job to fund my weekend retreat (or even primary homestead.) Once you start factoring in the cost of forest 'management', fire suppression, etc. those little cabins in the woods become VERY expensive, mostly to people who have nothing to do with them. It boils down to some of the same issues I have with big government allowing for the privatized gains, and public losses in the financial sector.

This of course is to say nothing for the NEED for nature to renew itself.

jeffmacewen wrote:

Thoreau wrote:Meh. To me, the tragedy is simply the fact that our forests have been 'managed' at all. I'm still of the opinion that nature has managed itself just fine for longer than we've existed as a species, and will continue to do so without us. Let it burn, crank up the Bloodhound Gang song to match, and let the forest renew itself without trying to justify the (costly and ineffective) existence of some bureaucratic machine in Washington.

While I'm tempted to agree, I worry about what would inevitably come if we didn't manage them at all. I'll admit indulging in fantasies about Catalina Highway sliding off the mountain never to be repaired. Trouble is, next time I hiked to the summit instead of finding gaudy McMansions I'd find "clandestine" dope grows, illegal mining, logging, squatters, several meth labs in the making, the rainbow people's international headquarters and ufo landing site, and who knows what the heck else. These things all share one common facet - they're far less desirable than an annoying highway stuffed with fat rich people on their motorcycles or in their luxury cars on the weekend that I almost never see from where I hike, anyway! :bigth:

I guess I should clarify that I'm not a total anarchist with regard to some level of management. The highway's that run thru a national forest, however, are simple DOT projects though, and I don't consider them related.

We've got the whole list of issues you mention even with current management tactics. Although I don't think I've yet stumbled across the UFO landing sites =) Thinning a forest out does nothing to eliminate them. My problem is more with the attempts to control nature for the benefit of the few, at the expense of the many, not with law enforcement, freeway maintenance, etc.

Sorry, but this is a rant. I don't think those hiker's meant any harm by their comments. (they should have brought Ranger Rick with them).
The fire was a tragedy in that the fire lookout is now toast, our pine forest has experienced a serious setback, and thousands of animals (mostly small) died in the fire as well, I would assume.
I understand the regenation theory, and the fact that the forest had been mismanaged for decades.....but still would have much rather not have had that human caused fire. I would rather not have the Gila fire going on now, as natural as that fire is.
Also, the pine beetle problem to our north (notably CO and NM) is also a tragedy even though it is natural (even though excellerated by warning). They stand to lose a great deal of their pine forests, and heaven help them when fire starts in those tinder dry dead trees....but that too is inevitable, I'm afraid.

Back in the day, if you had a cabin in the woods, likely it was built with cheap lumber, was rustic, may not have had utilities, was not worth much and was uninsured. To my way of thinking, that is the type of cabin to have. If it burns, oh well, build another one with your own money.

Continuing briefly with my rant about people coming up here and complaining about the Wallow Fire damage. They keep saying it wasn't natural because humans started it. They keep saying it is ugly, or tragic, or whatever.

The fire was natural, although it was started by humans, and was bound to happen. A fire of that nature was predicted by many oldtimers working at Alpine Ranger District for many years. I work in the industry (for a commercial company connected to wildland firefighting), so I hear a lot of things.

Another thing to consider. While you guys are going around posting all this stuff about how terrible the fire was, consider that the White Mtns. are in a deep economic crisis, especially the eastern WM. Round Valley Schools has lost so many students it has had to close a school and go to a four day week. Many businesses have closed. So while you folks are going on about the horrible fire, other people are googling the trails and reading what you wrote, and they are staying home.

But almost all the trails are open, and it is very interesting to see the differences before and after. And there is more unburned forest than there is burned forest. Why go on about how awful it made you feel? Consider that with your words you may be keeping others away, and thereby hurting a community that depends upon tourist dollars.

I've hiked in a number of fire-burned areas... While it's easy to rage about the devastation and destruction and how poorly the areas were managed (in CA, I'm not sure there is any management), I tend to simply enjoy what's there (such as the stark contrast between burned areas and those left untouched, the new life springing up everywhere, etc.).

I would encourage folks to hike in burned areas so they can experience the devastation on a visceral level that can't be achieved from watching television or seeing a picture. Doing so may foster a greater appreciation for those areas that are unscathed and maybe even instill a bit more caution than they had before...

PLC92084 wrote:I would encourage folks to hike in burned areas so they can experience the devastation on a visceral level

I would also add "so they can experience the beauty of a different shade.

Back in 2009 I hiked East Mountain of Pinal not realizing a fire had just been through there a few weeks prior and upon coming over a rise it seemed like I just landed in a Twilight Zone episode... practically everything was in black & white, or at least various shades of gray. The first thought was to turn around and hike somewhere else, but the closer we looked the more beauty we found. Yes is was a completely different type but nonetheless, in my opinion it was still beauty.

Back then I hadn't been posting many photos on HAZ so there is no photoset of that hike, but the photos can be seen here:
http://www.changephoenix.com/09/2009-06-27EastMtn.html