HikeArizona.COM

the latest poll question: do you seriously practice LNT ethics?

i answered no because
a. i don't pack out my waste
b. i don't pick up after other people
c. i've thrown a few apple cores in the bushes in the past

curious what others have to say
where do you draw the line?

I answered no as well. It is virtually impossible to leave no trace when you are "off trail" unless you are tiptoeing through the tulips....

I didn't answer because I didn't want to make the extra keystroke.... but I feel I've picked up a lot more trash then I've accidently left. And off-trail I do a lot less then most animals. LNT by its strictest definition means stay at home...don't walk,hike,hunt,fish,have a fire,etc,etc.

trekkin gecko wrote:. i've thrown a few apple cores in the bushes in the past

I've done that as well, as I consider that "plant matter" that will either disintegrate very fast or will be consumed by the various critters. I do, however, pack out my orange and banana peels as they are trashy looking and don't disintegrate very fast. My philosophy is to try to leave the place better than I found it, especially in my camping spots. I tend not to pick up alot of trash when I'm hiking although I have been known to kick dog poop off the trail as long as it's not too fresh... I do however, always carry a garbage bag in my pack, just in case I run into something that is just downright unbearable....

But Bob's right, LNT taken very literally is impossible and if you go by the definition, then I will always mark it a "no".

I read that entire LNT ethics article and then voted "Yes" (yes not because I haven't tossed an apple core in the past, but because I felt that anyone who abides by ~90% of this article's requirements can say they practice acceptable LNT ethics.. I consider apple cores (not banana & orange rinds) and off-trail hiking where it is legal to be part of the acceptable 10%).

Grasshopper wrote:I read that entire LNT ethics article and then voted "Yes" (yes not because I haven't tossed an apple core in the past, but because I felt that anyone who abides by ~90% of this article's requirements can say they practice acceptable LNT ethics.. I consider apple cores (not banana & orange rinds) and off-trail hiking where it is legal to be part of the acceptable 10%).

Well put! I answered "yes" too, for the same reasons. I think most of us "responsible" hikers leave as little trace as practically possible. And I have picked up a whole lot more trash than I have ever left! Besides the obvious and common plastic bottles and various snack wrappers, I have hauled out things like an entire tent (cheap walmart type, still in bag), piles of shotgun shells, and of course that bowling ball from hieroglyphic spring ... I also used to take large trash bags to papago park - not exactly wilderness, I know - and I would fill up the bag on one loop of the buttes. It made me feel good to do what I could, and it was a nice surprise when another hiker would notice what I was doing and thank me.

@cactuscat

bowling ball from hieroglyphic spring

what?

I answered no as well. But with similar answers that others have replied.

What's sort of funny is that one of the "treasures" that many seek to find on their explorations are the exact opposite of LNT, in fact some might call it graffiti. Others call them petroglyphs.

How old do drawings on a beautiful canyon wall need to be before they're a worthy destination, and not a disgusting scar?

I answered no as well. Only because I have left my .... waste behind in some deep holes, and I admit that I have left the occasional fruit peel behind (buried). I have picked up other people's trash before, drives me nuts to see trash on the trail. As for leaving no trace, its almost impossible to leave NO trace. I do try to leave nothing, and only walk on trails. When I go off trail, I try to use rocks and try no to tear up the ground to much.

Discarded bottles and wrappers on the trail are unnecessary, and depending on who you're talking to, organic trash such as left-over fruit is too. I've found that a small grocery bag/my pockets are very easy to utilize when I have trash, be it a wrapper or a banana peel. It's not a tall order to pack it in and pack it out.
I like the saying, "take only pictures, leave only footprints."

kevinweitzel75 wrote:When I go off trail, I try to use rocks and try no to tear up the ground to much.

This is one thing that I find myself getting carried away with sometimes.

chumley wrote:How old do drawings on a beautiful canyon wall need to be before they're a worthy destination, and not a disgusting scar?

What's does it say in the label description for inscriptions? Let's go with that.

carrying in an apple then tossing the core is no different that packing in a beer then chucking the can.
that is all.

@te-wa Well, unfortunately Beer doesn't regenerate as much as you would like it to, beer cans don't decompose and the alcohol doesn't really benefit the local fauna. I look at it as reforestation. I know alot of Hikers that would love to happen upon an Apple Tree....Does this mean that if I drop a few raspberries in the forest that I am littering??? Arrest those bushes!!!

http://hikearizona.com/photo.php?ZIP=217138

That argument is absurd - apple trees aren't going to grow in most areas of Arizona without special care - which is why you will only find them in orchard. Are you digging a hole for the seed, coming back to water it daily for the next few months. Give me a break! If you just bury it - fine - out of sight, out of mind.

Raspberries will go naturally in many places of Arizona. Apples fall under apple trees - but rarely do they sprout.

Look at it this way - would you like it if I drove by your house and threw a bunch of (whatever) into your front yard - would you be content looking at it every day until mother nature finally took care of it? If the answer is no - don't leave that crap around on your hikes. bring a ziplock and pack it out, don't be lazy.

In most areas of Arizona, things tend to dehydrate before they decompose - low humidity and all. Occasionally, ants might be able to completely chop it up and turn it into food before that happens. But generally not. Decomposition requires moisture. Otherwise you just get disintegration as the heat and UV rays weakens the molecular bonds until it basically collapses into dust. This latter process takes much longer, especially if it isn't directly in the sun. I find banana peels, orange peels, and apple cores all the time. That crap lasts a long time. It's litter, just like the candy wrappers and other stuff.

Per the test above - I bet nobody would observe rasperries seeds and a few shriveled up raspberries lying around their front yard. If I dumped a dozen apple cores I bet somebody would have a stronger reaction. If you already had an apple tree in your yard, I don't think you would care if there were a few dried up apples under it. You probably pick them up every week or so, though. (Or else your landscaper does.)

That's a short sided argument. LNT didn't need to exist thousands of years ago. Disposable <anything> didn't exist back then. Paint stores didn't exist back then. If you wanted to draw on the wall, you had to pick the berries, mash em up, mix em together, add the special mud, and paint it with your fingers. If you wanted a knife you had to nap the rock, carve the bones, and tie them together with the sinew of the animal you hunted for your food. All this done while scratching a living out in the middle of the pumpkin-end of nowhere.

Comparing the efforts of prehistoric man (the culture where this type of art was likely rare) to the vandalism expressed by a ignorant individual who buys paint for $1 or scratches their name into a wall with a $3 knife purchased at some store is laughable. Ancient man's intent is to express their thoughts about daily life. Modern vandalism is to claim personal claim to victory by simply visiting the place. Yeah - you drove 100 miles and hiked 2, what a special accomplishment plz: .

I find cabins to be interesting historic artifact, the older they are. Cabins that date back more than 100 years are recognized as historic by the park service - you know that their lives were damn hard back then when they were originally built. A modern house that isn't even built by the owners - not so special. A rough hut built by a man scratching out a living off the land in Alaska built 3 years ago - I have respect for that.

It's the effort that goes into things that typically makes them special. Also, the rarity of the item. Not necessarily how old it is. There's lots of old stuff around - someone's antiques are someone else's junk. Age alone doesn't make anything significant.

chumley wrote:I answered no as well. But with similar answers that others have replied.

What's sort of funny is that one of the "treasures" that many seek to find on their explorations are the exact opposite of LNT, in fact some might call it graffiti. Others call them petroglyphs.

How old do drawings on a beautiful canyon wall need to be before they're a worthy destination, and not a disgusting scar?

@nonot
I'm so sorry that I offended you so badly Steve, that post was sorta supposed to have a humorous effect. I just kinda thought it was absurd to compare an apple to a beer can. But, I don't argue on forums and I can see that this topic is a little too hot for me, :sorrry: ut:

You didn't offend me, I was expressing my opinion on the matter.

@trekkin gecko
Lol, I haven't told you that story?
Someone had taken two bowling balls up to the springs - I presume to roll them down the rocky chute, to see what would happen - and one was at the bottom of the falls, shattered into a million pieces. The other was fully intact, so I carried it out ... not so easy to carry a 12 or 14 pound bowling ball out a few miles, but I really enjoyed how much it must have weirded people out when they saw me hiking out with it!

well, i don't think it will be too much trouble for me to bring along a ziploc to pack out an apple core

@cactuscat
that's pretty crazy!
good on you for packing that out

I think someone on here once said something like - it's ok to leave an apple core if you are in an apple orchard, and it's ok to leave a banana peel if you are in a jungle where bananas are growing ... otherwise it's all trash, and should be packed out.