HikeArizona.COM

http://azstarnet.com/news/science/envir ... 0adb5.html

Very cool

----- links added from thread -----

Jun 7th 2013 'A taste for bighorn sheep': Mountain lions threaten wildlife project
http://www.jrn.com/kgun9/news/210658811.html

Jan 24th 2014 Game and Fish reports 3 more bighorn sheep deaths
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/2454 ... eep-deaths

Jul 18th 2014 second transplant of bighorn sheep to the Catalina Mountains this fall, but no final decision has been made
http://tucson.com/news/local/bighorns-f ... deac1.html

Nov 18th Another Reintroduced Bighorn Sheep Dies Near Tucson
http://arizonahighways.com/blog/another ... ear-tucson

Nov 19th 14 bighorns captured, set for release in Catalinas
http://tucson.com/news/local/bighorns-c ... 7c41c.html

Nov 20th They killed 3 bighorns in the relocation process! No joke.
http://tucson.com/news/local/bighorns-r ... 59a8a.html

Well the signs are up.

Pure coincidence that I spotted 5 bighorn sheep on the A trail this afternoon. We still have a ton of habitat around here. Not much water, though.

Saw a herd of 18 down along the Black River a couple of weeks ago. Those were Rocky Mountain bighorn instead of the desert variety.

It irritates me when people refer to them as "mountain goats." (I guess I'm easily irritated... ;) )

azbackpackr wrote:I guess I'm easily irritated... ;)

Just imagine what its like for the rest of us! ;)

Tough_Boots wrote:

azbackpackr wrote:I guess I'm easily irritated... ;)

Just imagine what its like for the rest of us! ;)

Oh, pfffffftttt!

Years and years ago on a Scout trip we may have seen the last of the herd that used to be up there. May these ones fare better!

I saw a nice big ram in Pima Canyon in 1998, after they had announced all the sheep were gone. I called G&F, and the guy on the phone grilled me to make sure I knew what I was talking about. He clearly did not believe me. Oh, and Jeff, remember when Mr. B. used to always point up the side of the hill in Pima Canyon and tell about the water device, some sort of rubber bladder-type tank, that had been placed up there for the sheep? I never did see that thing.

And let's throw something I found of interest to not only this Thread, but also to the recent "Closure due to Lion" thread...viewtopic.php?t=7701

These Lions just can't hardly turn around anymore without doing something wrong.... ;)
http://www.kgun9.com/news/local/210658811.html

Well, I guess the good thing is that there are ten times more deer to eat than Bighorns.

Hmmm....70 lions, 100 sheep, 10,000 deer...and how many humans?

I particularly liked the alliteration employed by the journalist: "Pumas could pounce on a plan..."

It's up to the humans to defend themselves.

Ready for a Rant??? Here it comes!!!

I doubt very seriously if past failures of the Bighorn Sheep population in that area was solely because of Lions, if they contributed at all....

Sooo, next Spring, it will be absolutely unacceptable for a female Mountain Lion trying to feed her young, to kill a Bighorn Sheep, but totally acceptable for Officials to kill the Lion and let the Cubs die out on the Range somewhere....

There is just something wrong when a Wild Animal is destroyed for preying on another Wild Animal...Seriously people??? This just really frosts my Fair is fair in Nature, until people get involved....

The Catalinas can either support bighorns or they can't. The introduced herd will be able to survive if suitable habitat exists (food, water, etc.), and knocking off apex predators wouldn't help them.

Think about the likely current dynamic of the lion population in the Catalinas. It doesn't look like there is much hunting pressure, if any, in the Catalinas so it's likely that big males dominate relatively large ranges. These older, larger males cause younger males who are born in their territories to disperse, and thus keeps the overall lion population stable. Knock off an established male lion or 3, and suddenly 3 established male lions turn into 5 or 6 younger toms. 5 lions eat more than 3. That's not good for lions or sheep in the long run. Alternatively, kill off all of the lions, and then the deer and sheep eat themselves out of house and home. In other words, any ecosystem that can support apex predators is relatively healthy. The ecosystems that experience a loss of apex predators suffer, and that's called a trophic cascade. Sorry, I've been reading up on trophic cascades. And mesopredator release, and all that.

If it makes you feel any better, the OP article stated that habitat was restored by the fires on the Catalina Mountains 10 years ago, yet how many fires have we had since? How many would have occurred if humans had not put them out? The Gila NF put out lightning caused fire in the middle of the Gila Wilderness in June of 2010, which was after a wet winter when the fire might have been easier to steer and control. The that area had the hot Miller and Whitewater-Baldy fires in 2011 and 2012, both drought years. Seems the feds are far from consistent on managing wilderness area as such, and they still have some actions like it was 1960. At least in single species management, they can argue that they are doing what is best for the Bighorns, not the ecosystem overall or the wilderness, but I agree there is something fundamentally wrong with killing the lions.

Jim Lyding wrote:It doesn't look like there is much hunting pressure,

Well, at least not legal hunting pressure....http://www.kvoa.com/news/game-and-fish- ... cave-park/#_

Catalina Bighorn Advisory Committee's response to the mountain lion debate, interesting read:

Restoring bighorn sheep won't require wholesale slaughter of lions
http://azstarnet.com/news/opinion/resto ... 6df81.html

They now have a website underway, too:
http://www.catalinabighornrestoration.org

In case anyone was interested....

http://oracle-catalina-saddlebrooke.tuc ... -catalinas

I'm just curious, I know there are healthy herds (flocks?) elsewhere. I guess I haven't paid attention as to where they plan to get them. Anyone know?

azbackpackr wrote: I guess I haven't paid attention as to where they plan to get them. Anyone know?

Yuma