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A recent photo on HAZ ignited a bunch of comments about thru-hikers and trash.

Then yesterday, a HAZ member posted a link about thru-hikers on the PCT not carrying out their own trash because they were thru-hiking!

It's sad but interesting letter posted by a public affairs officer for the Inyo National Forest: http://www.pcta.org/2014/hey-thru-hiker ... ash-20557/

So just a reminder to everybody (obviously not restricted to thru-hikers): You are responsible for everything you bring onto the trail, and you need to bring it all back out with you. In some areas this includes toilet paper and human waste.

Take only pictures, leave only footprints.

Jack Haskel is the man.

chumley wrote:A recent photo on HAZ ignited a bunch of comments about thru-hikers and trash.

Could you link to this photo and comments please?

AZT thru-hikers are generally well-behaved in this regard. Really, thru-hikers of all stripes are, statistically speaking, far ahead of the curve (which of course is greatly dumbed down by the masses of uneducated day hikers - not HAZers, but rather non-HAZers as it were).

If a thru-hiker leaves trash behind, which is to say in the backcountry, or at a trailhead devoid of trash cans, then almost always it will be at a public cache location. It could be a water cache box in the case of the AZT or PCT, or a "trail angel cooler" full of treats on the AT. By their very nature these caches contain stuff that the thru-hiker did not actually bring to the area, but which they are nonetheless encouraged to consume. Human nature being what it is, not exactly surprising that empty containers of this or that won't always get packed out by the individual who finished them off, but rather placed back into the cache with the assumption that the cache maintainer will ultimately haul it all away at the end of the season. When the next hiker then comes across this "trash cache" it is that much easier to make the same decision him or herself, until eventually there's a real mess to content with.

I'm not defending the status quo here, but just demonstrating how the ball gets rolling. Ultimately we can fault the concept of public on-trail caching; we can fault the thru-hiker for his or her little moment of weakness (and there are plenty of such moments to come by on a thru-hike); and we can fault the crowd mentality and human nature itself. In the long run, though, it's a small problem that grows in proportion to a trail's popularity, and it does take vigilance to minimize it. Ultimately you won't eliminate it, as it's a symptom of the culture, albeit a very minor symptom in most cases that isn't representative of the health of the organism. Let's try to keep it in perspective.

http://hikearizona.com/photo=414997

Should water caches be hidden?

Have you ever littered on a hike?

Ever drink untreated water from an unknown source?

Do you backpack light knowing you'll borrow?

Thanks Joe. It seems like an aberration in this case, largely fueled by misunderstanding. What I attempted to describe is more the recurring phenomenon in the case of thru-hiking culture. In any case, there's a tinge of pedantic scolding, or perhaps venting, in the OP's premise which is probably unnecessary on the /azt topics.

blisterfree wrote:In any case, there's a tinge of pedantic scolding, or perhaps venting, in the OP's premise which is probably unnecessary on the /azt topics.

Sorry but I disagree with that analysis on the OP.
Separately, I've been section hiking a lot of the AZT over the past several years. I have seen many, many discarded gallon water jugs or other trash. I think there are a number of badly behaved AZT thru hikers or day hikers. Places I have seen this trash: Huachucas, Black Hills, Tortillas, Supes, Mazzies to name just a few.
People need to learn LNT.

blisterfree wrote:What I attempted to describe is more the recurring phenomenon in the case of thru-hiking culture.

Well I for one think this is an absolute disgrace... and even worse is providing an excuse for those who don't respect the world they live in.

Why should it be any different between a casual hiker and a thru-hiker?
Is the thru-hiker somehow allowed to act worse just because they are thru-hiking?

Ah, but yes, that's just what society is becoming... it's ok for me but not someone else.

And while I applaud those who actually admitted they have littered on a hike, in the same breath I say shame on the 12% who littered on a hike.

blisterfree wrote:OP's premise

OP?

gummo wrote:

blisterfree wrote:OP's premise

OP?

Original Poster.

For clarification Brett was speaking, in part, to where the topic is listed. It has since been moved.

@CannondaleKid
You'll note that I didn't provide an excuse for the behavior, but rather an explanation. And the way it generally works - shocking anecdotes to the contrary aside - is like I said: a public cache location, not a private / personal cache, but a public cache, possibly one endorsed and maintained by official sanction, contains stuff that hikers want and then deplete, and the depleted we'll now have to call it trash accumulates at the cache location. While it's a good idea to remind folks about the unwritten policy of packing out empties they render as such through consumption (even ones the hiker didn't pack in), and while we all generally know about LNT and respect it as it applies to us on a personal level, the reality is that the trailside cache is inherently a non-LNT concept and the cache location a non-LNT square yard of the backcountry (or trailhead or wherever). Ultimately you have to conclude that either the convenience / safety of having public caches along the trail wins out (let's limit this to the AZT for the sake of argument here) or LNT does, but that in this very specific and limited situation *you simply cannot have it both ways.* I think when you examine the origin story / reason being behind AZ Trail caches, and run some quick logic arguments on caching vs LNT you have to conclude they're mutually exclusive ideas, but each with its merits and they can coexist peacefully, most of the time, within limits, if we're doing it right.

PS - It's not about thru-hikers vs casual hikers, or entitlement vs humble piety or whatever, but simple cause and effect. Casual hikers don't rely on caches as often because they don't need them as often. Thru-hikers don't need gas guzzling vehicles to reach their next trailhead as often as casual hikers do, but likewise it's just a consequence of circumstances, not an overt gesture that you can scrutinize as though it were. PPS - The PCT anecdote with the trash bag and note *was* an entitlement problem, in my view, way different than the heart of the argument re: AZT and caching.

By the way I agree, if we agree, that the personal caches - the random water jugs in the backcountry marked for an individual's use - should go away to whatever extent possible. Increasingly the AZT has established public cache locations that are "hardened" / enclosed to protect the plastic jugs from deterioration and to store them against becoming litter on the wind when empty. Many of the more problematic stretches of trail for long-distance hikers are supported by these public caches. Some of the other places folks cache are unnecessary but it's a perception problem, a matter of fear and "just in case." Absolutely these random private caches must be packed out when the hiker reaches them (assuming he or she ultimately does, which is surely part of the problem), and that's true even if they're not fully consumed or if the hiker thinks they're being generous toward the next thirsty hiker to come along after them.

What's interesting is that the problem, when it becomes one, usually has its origins in the best of intentions and then snowballs. They wouldn't think of throwing a candy bar wrapper or orange peel on the ground but they didn't think through the consequences of their actions with the water caching and presto, we have what the detached observer would rightly call a litter problem.

mazatzal wrote:Places I have seen this trash: Huachucas, Black Hills, Tortillas, Supes, Mazzies to name just a few.
People need to learn LNT.

Huachucas: could be migrant trash, or thru-hiker, or day hiker, AZT-specific or otherwise
Black Hills: thru-hiker, or biker, or day hiker
Tortillas: thru-hiker, or biker, or day hiker
Supes: thru-hiker, or day hiker, AZT-specific or otherwise, very conceivably otherwise
Mazzies: thru-hiker, or day hiker, AZT-specific or otherwise, very conceivably otherwise

W/r/t non-public cache trash, your guess is really as good as mine, though some part of the time, surely, the reality is squarely at odds with the spirit of the thread title in this case. Ultimately we're all in this thing together.