HikeArizona.COM

A few weeks ago I posted a notice, actually an vehement objection, to the $6.00 per night camping fee that went into effect on March 1st for the Saguaro National Park and the Rincon Mountains Wilderness Area. I encouraged my fellow members to voice their opinions about this prohibitive fee. The email address of the park superintendent is as follows: sarahcraighead@nps.gov. Even though you may not hike in these mountains or spend any nights there, your voices will be heard and may in fact make a difference. Otherwise, overnight fees, trailhead fees, etc. will continue to spread like a disease to other areas across the state.

Ugh, this is horrible. Free is for me and I will fight this to the death of it!

The rangers at Saguaro told me they really don't even collect the fee at most of the trailheads, with the exception of the main entrance. If you want to get around the fee depart from one of the other trailheads. The parks pass includes this obviously, and if you go to the Canyon once or twice per year it is worth it for the entrance to all the other parks, including Saguaro.

Let us ask you this--what percentage of your life's annual expenses does this fee constitute? Could you do us a big favor and actually calculate an answer to our question? We are curious as to how many zeros appear to the right of the decimal. We'd REALLY like to know the answer. It means a lot to us.

Thanks for your mathematical efforts in this regard!

J&S

PS--Here is how our personal "bets" shake out on your answer (should you actually provide one).

S= 4 zeros
J=5 zeros

The fate of the free world does not hang on your answer but a substantial "personal" bet does!

Good point. However, I'm not so to speak middle class myself, for I am in college and find ways to beat the system whenever possible, and save money for that matter. But for the responce, that fee would end up being only about .0006% of my annual salary.

Well, if it was you, Susun would win because she would be closer to 3 zeros than me with 5 zeros. I am hoping I can pull victory out of certain statistical defeat.
Oh, how j hopes for FIVE zeros! Gimme FIVE!

J&S

No, I did not write because I don't particularly care abour Saguaro. I share your feelings however. OK, let's do the math. 5.25 is minimum wage these days. Let's say in these uncertain times that there are two wage earners in this family and that they chose to have only two children. In one year's time they will earn 22,000. After social security and medicare they have 20,300. On the Indian reservations most jobs pay like that or very slightly more. There are LOTS of people in Arizona living on funds like that. Think of folks on a set income like Social Security. They live in those trailer parks we try not to notice or those shacks without electricity and running water. I don't know if any of them want to visit national parks and such but if they do want to they can't possibly afford to do so.

What percent of ones income this represents is not really whats at issue. Exhorbitant and excessive fee programs are what's at stake here. Many of us pay fees just to access public lands (the key word here being PUBLIC) and then we have to pay an additional overnight fee. All of us pay taxes both to our state and federal governments to maintain and make available for us the aformentioned PUBLIC lands. What the forest service is doing, essentially is double (and sometimes triple) dipping into their resources (that is to say us, the taxpayers). We pay the government to make the land available and then we pay the agency (also paid by the government) to to let us use the land that we have, theoretically at least, already paid for.

As for the percentage of income I think it is not as trivial or insignificant as you think. I am a college student, I make about $9,000/ year. I pay $250/ mo for rent, $75/ mo for utilities, $85/ mo for car insurance, $50/ mo for groceries and abou $200/ mo for college tuition. That leaves me with $1080 for fun and incidentals. So that six dollar fee to camp is about .005% of my available cash. So much for you 5 zeros huh? And thats only if I go to one six dollar site. I hike an average of about six times per month. Thats 72 hiking or camping trips per year. if I have to pay a six dollar fee only half of those times it equals $216 per year. Thats about 2% of my excess income. Where's your zeros now?

All that math not withstanding (and feel free to check my numbers), as financially tapped as I am, there are people who make less and pay more than I do. Sometimes I have to skip hiking in a fee area because I simply don't have the extra 2 or 3 dollars (that may sound funny to you, but not all of us are financially well endowed, as a matter of fact some of us are downright poor). I imagine that someone in more dire financial straights would be compelled to hike very occasionally or not at all.

Furthermore, as I stated in my 'What are we paying taxes for' post, just because a six dollar fee seems reasonable now, once they discover that we are willing to pay, how long will it take before they decide that they can bilk us out of another dollar, and then another, and another, until only the rich can afford to use public lands. I would like to see my children and their children able to use the same public lands that I use today.

50 bucks a month for food, WOW!! Now thats a hardcore ramen diet if I ever saw one! I spend for my fiance and I, about 250 a month. And that isn't eating gourmet or anything, although I do love to cook.

I work at a bakery/cafe so I get a lot of my groceries at work for next to nothing. Imagine how it would affect those zeros if we figured it at your 250 per month. That $50 is roughly half of what my fiance and I split each month. so its not as hardcore as you think.

Trust me I did the poor college student thing not that long ago. I also worked in restaurants when I was at Penn St. and got food from there oftentimes. As to the zeroes I have no idea, didn't really care to figure it out. I wasn't posting in regards to that, I was just startled at the groceries number you put there, although 100 does make a little bit more sense.

WHOA! Life must be tough on you all! Well, just for the record, we live on WAY LESS than you

("as financially tapped as I am, there are people who make less and pay more than I do.")

and, since we don't complain about such fees, we must wonder if we, indeed, aren't having MORE FUN than you. If it's "less fun," to whom do WE complain?

Frankly, all of your complaining wears thin on people who know how to live with far less that you think you need (or say you have).

Hey, let's put in it terms your income-challenged brain might possibly understand:

It's ALL in YOUR mind!

DEAL with it!

Move on and HIKE ON!

J&S

Thats big talk, I'd like to see a breakdown of your finances, since your so willing to ask you should be equally willing to share. And as for fun, you need'nt worry about the likes of me. I make do. I imagine the reason you have more fun, is due to a well known principal. Ignorance is bliss. Pleasure is simple to come by for the simple minded (since were going to attack each-others minds here). I would, of course, be interested in what I could do to live on far less than what I think I need (or what I say I have (whatever that means)). Maybe I should cut out my groceries, or stop paying rent, or maybe I should drop out of school? Do those seem like effective cost cutting measures to you? As for my income-challenged mind, if its all in my head, and it really does not matter, why do you seem so upset that we should question the fees? Should we accept what our government forces on us blindly and unquestioningly? Because if your answer is yes perhaps you should move to a country where that sort of thing is the law and not a personal preference, maybe somewhere like Iraq.

Since we seem to have such chemistry montezumawell I checked out your profile and I noticed something a little funny at the end I believe it went something to the tune of "Our long term goal is to continue to hike as often as possible as long as our health and finances permit for the remainder of our active lives. "

perhaps my income-challenged brain has some company?

We have been living on $7200 a year for quite some time and having a good time. We can still pay our fees.
J&S

Wow, maybe you really do know how to stretch a dime. Thats pretty impressive for two people to live off of $7,200. I'd like to know your secret.

I don't think that is the important part though. Obviously I can afford to pay a fee now and then, as can most people regardless of their income. Ocassional fees are merely inconveniences not insurmountable obstacles.

The point of the argument is that these fees are beginning to proliferate everything we try to do in the forest. Fees are constanly being instituted in new places and old fees are being increased. If this trend continues there is the distinct possibility that more areas will become fee-accessable, and/or existing fees will be continually raised. The fees we pay are not even mandated by any law or legislation. The forest service developed this "fee program" in order to prove to legislators that the people were willing to pay to use their land. Because it has been successful they have expanded it to include greater areas and future success means future expansions.

I am not adamantly opposed to paying any fees. However if no one is willing to ask these questions or challenge the "rules" then our government will surely overrun us. This country was founded on the idea that the government does not have the final say. Ultimately the government is responsible to us, the people. It is our duty to try and protect what rights we have now and try to preserve them for future generations.

So I would be greatly interested to hear what you had to say if you could get the financial question out of your head and turn to the issues and principals involved with these "fee programs".

Awesome Matt! Glad the crappola' stage has passed. I'll for one admit, I didn't think you cared half as much about the issue as the "you".
Since hopefully you've learned a little r-e-s-p-e-c-t with the elder knowledge base...
let me back-up
The zuma's went nice on ya, you didn't know what you were up against, they are after all the king & queen of "make it happen"
God forbid you ever reply to Mary P with such answers

anyhow, to the issue!!!

If you get down to the core, I doubt anybody here really wants to pay the fees.
Do you really think writing the forest will ever help? My thoughts... MAYBE if ten million did it
Why? The forest service isn't out to get your buck. They want to make the place better. There just isn't any money to make that happen. At least that's my observation. I shouldn't really say in all honesty as I've never worked for the forest service. I'm merely going on what friends & family have experienced working with the FS.

So the FS doesn't have the funds so they try and create 'em. Do they do any better than the government higher up. Apparently not, nearly all of the Red Rock fees went to pay for the littature and staffing of the centers.
Personally I don't think it was ALL bad, they did rise awareness. I'm pretty sure any Sedona trail will match up cleaner to any given Payson trail, hands DOWN!
You really only need to go the Bell Trail, it's just outside the Red Rock fee area and what do you have... begins with a "g" and it's all over the place.

So unless you're willing to go out and maintain these trails yourself, somebody HAS to pay somewhere cause not everybody has the common sense as you or I to believe ONE gum wrapper is TOO MUCH, yet alone beer cans galore.

Does orginaztion work? Apparently yes, from what I hear, one trip to Havasu will change your mind on the "do as you please theory"

So back to making a difference. Will beating on the FS help, personally I don't THINK so. But hey, that's just my opinion. I believe you gotta go higher up, it's the structure.
Now do I personally give a rats as=s
BARELY, the zeros do come into play, it's hardly worth my time if I don't think writing somebody will make a difference. Personally I'd rather spend my spare time doing something I enjoy than fighting a ten cent battle. Is it wrong, YA!, do I care, BARELY. I'm obviously NOT the hero, it's gotta be you MATT! make it happen, be true to the cause! I seriously support you believe it or not.

( I have this distinct image of WIZ stabing his voodoo teva doll )

As I'm quickly reminded via pre-dawn e-mail

Ground level opposition is making a difference on the Red Rock Fee

Maybe with enough support around the country, win enough small battles, eventually the system will change?

I gotta run to work, but I may e-mail the NP later. Though I'm not convinced e-mailing will help. I picture the delete button on their end wearing out before the fire button on a space invaders game.

>"I am not adamantly opposed to paying any fees"

My point exactly. I've suggested to the Park sup that they consider an annual fee option for those of us who frequent the Park over a year's time. I would not hesitate to purchase, say, a $20 yearly pass. I'm certainly willing to support the maintenance efforts of the FS. But I balk at dishing out $18 every time I camp (a three-nighter is typical for me), especially if I plan to do this 6, 8, 10 times per year. I would venture a guess that those who regularly camp in the backcountry, especially after tackling a 5500 ft. elevation gain, are the ones who would be more inclined to practice low impact and leave no trace ethics. Aren't these the type of visitors the FS would most want in their wilderness area? At $6 per night, it's this conscientious group of regular, backcountry overnighters they are discouraging.

Ignorance is bliss

I think I like that one ya'll. However, it doesn't seem to me that you were really ready for oh so great " attaching of the mind" games here. They definitly know what they're talking about; and for you to challenge them was quite honorable. But your death of the conversation was quite honorable too. Down and out. Agreed with Teva on this one. Good luck to you and future mind games!!