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First Water Upper Creek Loop, AZ

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469 60 1
Guide 60 Triplogs  1 Topic
Rated  Favorite Wish List AZ > Phoenix > Superstitions NW
3.1 of 5 by 21
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Difficulty 2.5 of 5
Route Finding 3 of 5
Distance Round Trip 7.2 miles
Trailhead Elevation 2,300 feet
Elevation Gain 710 feet
Avg Time Round Trip 5.5 hours
Kokopelli Seeds 10.75
Interest Off Trail Hiking, Seasonal Waterfall & Seasonal Creek
Backpack Yes & Connecting
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Photos Viewed All Mine Following
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13  2019-02-17 adenium
23  2017-11-19
Willow Springs from First Water TH
8  2017-01-05 Minkis
15  2015-02-06 snakemarks
17  2015-01-04 bballard
5  2013-11-24 AZLumberjack
18  2013-02-22 snakemarks
10  2013-01-28 Jonnybackpack
Page 1,  2,  3,  4
Author Fritzski
author avatar Guides 43
Routes 0
Photos 597
Trips 59 map ( 132 miles )
Age 66 Male Gender
Location Gilbert, AZ
Historical Weather
Trailhead Forecast
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Preferred   Feb, Mar, Oct, Nov → 9 AM
Seasons   Autumn to Spring
Sun  6:14am - 6:23pm
Official Route
1 Alternative
Fauna Nearby
Flora Nearby
Meteorology Nearby
Named place Nearby
Culture Nearby
Wet 'n Wild
by Fritzski

This is a really neat day hike. It follows a loop from the Dutchman Trail, through the First Water Creek bed, out into the wide West Boulder Canyon, down into O'Grady Canyon, and then back on the Dutchman.

From the First Water Trailhead take the Dutchman Trail south until it crosses First Water Creek for the last time. I counted seven creek bed crossings to this point where the trail veers up and to the left and the creek goes right. At this point you should see two dead branches sticking straight up and a large cairn ( yours truly :) ). From here the directions are simple: Just follow the creek (and I mean actually follow the creek, i.e. Stay right in it). No matter how tempting it is with all the water in the creek to try and parallel it, don't do it. You will eventually be thwarted by impassable vegetation at some point (this from experience). Basically it is a rock hop through the creek bed. I found trekking poles to be invaluable for balance (no wet feet!).

The really neat part begins where the creek makes a bend due south through a narrow canyon toward the back side of the Superstition ridgeline. Things will begin to close in, the trees and vegetation will begin to thicken and soon you will find yourself climbing through a long series of pristine pools and waterfalls. Once again, the best bet here is to stay in the bed and use your imagination to negotiate around the pools and boulders. Only once did I deviate up to the left slope above the bed on smooth rock. If you look you will begin to see cairns in this area to help guide you. You will eventually come to an awesome mini rock-walled canyon with a cascading waterfall. You will need to boulder up the right side of it and check it out from the top. I was tempted to try Mother Natures version of a water slide!

After some more pools you will eventually emerge from the canyon into the large valley (W. Boulder Canyon) at the base of the Ridgeline. Here the hike opens up and becomes much easier and basically follows the contour of the large hill to your left all the way to O'Grady Canyon. Stay with the creek bed, but take the branch that bears left hugging the hillside. About half way to O'Grady you will see cairns directing you to keep bearing left up the creek bed to a shallow saddle heading N.E. I believe this to be a shortcut back to the Dutchman trail. This hike stays straight (S.E.), finally departing the creek bed and eventually skirting left around the next hill down into O'Grady Canyon (also marked with sparse cairns). Turning N.E. into O'Grady I found that the trail tends to crisscross the creek bed in no real formal way. Once you are abreast of Tim's Saddle on the right (east) the trail begins to be well defined but looks seldom traveled. Eventually after an invigorating climb through a small pass you will intersect the Dutchman trail close to Parker Pass. Along this section are some great views of the Needle back over your right shoulder. From here just follow the Dutchman Trail north back to the First Water trailhead.

This hike may be easier in dry conditions, but I recommend it The wetter, the better! Good luck and enjoy.

Check out the Official Route and Triplogs.

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2001-02-15 Fritzski
    WARNING! Hiking and outdoor related sports can be dangerous. Be responsible and prepare for the trip. Study the area you are entering and plan accordingly. Dress for the current and unexpected weather changes. Take plenty of water. Never go alone. Make an itinerary with your plan(s), route(s), destination(s) and expected return time. Give your itinerary to trusted family and/or friends.

    Most recent of 21 deeper Triplog Reviews
    First Water Upper Creek Loop
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    If you want to hike out to Willow Spring, use the posted trail. Do not follow the route I took on the first half of my hike today. I did this hike for the workout (bouldering rocks!) plus a chance to see some new stuff.

    The first part of the hike followed the FW Upper Creek Loop. When the creek trail bends back towards Dutchman, I continued south following a route I picked up from the SAR website. The route was what I expected for the most part, until I ran into a jungle, then it got nasty for a bit. I must have missed a turn, cause I can't imagine anyone wanting to go through that. After reviewing my route a week later and comparing it to the SAR route, I did miss a turn; I should have stayed above the fray and skirted around to the NE, where the brush ends, before bending back to the SE.

    Merged onto WB canyon at the end of the SAR route, then bumpy smooth sailing to the spring. Good water at the spring, but nothing (or nothing good) anywhere else.

    Snapped some pics at Willow Spring, then headed over to the stone corral to see if I could find some good shots there. I found the south anchorage and I could see the anchorage on the other side. I am assuming that the thick brush that's there now must have been there when Adolf Ruth cleared that out and built the wall. It's truly amazing what people were willing to do out here in this wilderness.

    I followed the official Willow Spring route back to FW trailhead. Ignore the large cairn to your left as you head back. The cairn invites you to leave the creek into the bush to the west. It's part of the official route, but it's so overgrown in there that you'll quickly regret leaving the creek. I did.

    I exited WB creek along a cairned route below Tim's Saddle and followed the path up and over Tim's and another saddle farther along. I hooked up with Dutchman again at Parker Pass. I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed Dutchman after all of that boulder hopping.

    Fun hike, but only if you like off trail and boulder hopping. Lot's of both today. The weather was perfect. I didn't see anyone (and didn't expect to) until the last couple of miles on the Dutchman trail. Then I saw a few families enjoying the outdoors on a gorgeous Sunday afternoon.
    First Water Upper Creek Loop
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    FW Creek Palamino Mtn Black Mesa
    Some friends are in town visiting, so I took the day off to spend some time with them. Their plans changed, though, and we wouldn't be able to hook up until late afternoon. So what to do with this unexpected free time. No brainer. I'm heading to the Supes!

    I scanned some routes around the First Water trailhead and came up with a pair of Fritzski's: the First Water Upper Creek loop and Aylor's Arch. See Fritzski's excellent descriptions for details on these two hikes. Instead of looping back to Dutchman at Tim's Saddle as per Fritzski's FW Creek description, I continued along O'Grady Canyon until I reached Boulder Creek and eventually rejoined Dutchman. I added the Black Mesa and Second Water trails to my return to make this a loop hike.

    If you want to practice your bouldering skills, the FW Upper Creek route is your hike. I was never a fan of hiking in creek beds, but I found this portion of the hike to be most enjoyable. The creek was mostly dry, but there were numerous pools along the route. I thought about FOTG and his two dogs, Blanco and Buttercup. They would enjoy this route because of the pools.

    The Aylor's Arch hike turned out to be just a trip to the top of Palomino Mtn. I was running out of time before I had to meet my friends, so I left the arch as unfinished business. Another time. The ravine going to the top of the mountain is very cool. I was surprised by beautiful green grass just before you reach the summit. The views from the mountain top are awesome!

    The return along Black Mesa and 2nd water was uneventful. I closed the loop on this hike about seven hours after I started. Time to head home to prepare for some backyard grillin and chillin with friends!
    First Water Upper Creek Loop
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    With the cold front about to hit, I wanted to squeeze in a hike before the predicted rains and wind hit us so I headed out to First Water TH which turned out to be a good choice weatherwise :) The weather was favorable at my 0700 start time with a light wind and moderate temps so I headed out on the Dutchman's Trail.

    A group of teens from the AZ Conservation Corps has been working on the trails and I wanted to see for myself what kind of job they were doing. Awesome, incredible, superb work, They cleared a lot of the brush from alongside the trail so there's no danger of sneaking up on an unsuspecting snake. They cleared loose rocks from the creek crossings, they removed the stumble stones from the center of the trails and even filled the holes. The Dutchman's Trail is manicured almost to the extent of Camelback and other popular inner hiking destinations. The only problem I could come up with was that it feels too comfortable and not like a Wilderness hiking experience..... :?

    I continued on as far as Parker Pass and noticed how much the weather had changed in the short time I was out and not having rain gear with me, I decided that this would be a good time to turn around and head back. On my return, I ran into other hikers who were on their way out and cautiously reminded them of the approaching weather... Huh?

    I met Lou at the Trailhead and we talked for a few minutes then we headed back down the road. We hadn't even gone as far as the horse trailer lot and ran into the first splatters of rain on the windshield and before too long it was time to put on the wipers. The rest of the drive home was in and out of light rain, a real pleasure to see and feel but the winds kept picking up and getting stronger. I think the heavy winds blew the rains further East where it caught up with others taking their chances.

    Still, a nice outing knowing that my days in Arizona are soon ending as I will be returning to Minnesota for the Summer..... A summer of fighting the mosquito's and deer fly's :o

    Some Indian Paint Brush and Occotillo to give color to the trails.
    First Water Upper Creek Loop
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    Got my job back again this year, that is if you call volunteering for the Forest Service a job :) Started the season out by working the First Water TH, arriving around 0700. After the necessary house cleaning and parking lot beautification, I was greeting hikers heading out following two days of rain that left around 2.2 inches here in the Apache Junction area.

    Not many hikers out with the dark sky's and threat of rain so I hiked around the points and down the Dutchmans Trail for a ways. The water in the creeks tumbled against the rocks and made for enjoyable sounds in the quiet morning. Not enough flow to get the feet wet, but enough to make rock hopping necessary as I crossed the flows out of the canyons. Some stretches of the trail had mud puddles but no washouts so we survived the rains without major problems.

    I'm always surprised at how quickly the plants absorb the rains and almost overnight turn from burnt brown to spring green. Met a few happy hikers on the trail and some on horseback anxious to see water flowing in First Water Creek again. Back at the Trailhead, I was treated to a partial rainbow over the Massacre Grounds.

    Yep, great start to the season :y:

    Very few signs of color.
    First Water Upper Creek Loop
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    OK... I didn't do the loop. I didn't even make it to the falls, which was my original goal.
    Maybe I should have filed this trip under "Distracted off-trail wandering along First Water Creek".

    Working at the trailhead, I decided to go out and get a water report (a built-in excuse to go hiking, instead of whatever it is I was supposed to be doing). Dean stayed behind, as he was working on a project there, so I told him my plans and took off. (This was a big no-no, as "new policy" states that we are not allowed to hike alone in uniform.)

    I started out with good intentions, hiking the Dutchman taking note of water conditions in the creek crossings (#1-moderate, #2-dry, #3,4,5,6-very good, #7-light). Wait.. what? #7 light?! This was my stop, where I get off the Dutchman and into the real fun. But, where was the whitewater from my imagination? I pictured the falls as being some wet rock with a puddle at the bottom. I knew that was hysterically pessimistic and completely wrong thinking, yet the seeds of doubt had been planted in my zero boredom tolerance brain.

    As I was well aware that it would, the water level increased significantly as I hiked up the creek. This amused me enough to stay on track for a while, but when I reached the long stretch that is historically drier than other sections, my ADHD mind began to wander and subconsciously search for a diversion. I'm sure that patience here would have been rewarded further on, but 10 minutes of hiking dry rock was all it took for me to abandon my route and head up the nearest interesting peak... which lead to another... and so on.

    My new goal was the highest peak in that vicinity, which appeared as though it might overlook the falls on the other side (I still remembered I was supposed to go there). It was fairly steep as I got near the top, which was a jumble of ginormous rocks and boulders. I was following game trails here and from the looks of them, large game. As I got closer, one of those slow-to-action red flags popped up in my brainscape with the words, "Could you be 'game'?" I was aware that there is a big cat in this area that is used to seeing people and hiking alone up to those high rocks suddenly seemed like a bad idea. The devil on my left insisted that this wouldn't be an issue, since I am generally full of bad ideas, which I somehow survive without gross bodily harm. Besides, I was literally 5 minutes from looking over the other side. Could you be game?! I already knew the answer. Making a rare appearance, my better judgment convinced me to turn back. Once that decision was made, the cat in "other people's" landscape mentally became the cat in mine. One minute I'm fearless, the next minute I'm in a controlled panic over an imagined threat. Amazing what your mind can do. (I should try to use mine more often so we can get to know each other better.)

    Noticing the time, I took the most direct route back to the creek, which involved some pretty nasty bushwacking. Once I was in the dry creek, I moved pretty fast (realizing that it was getting close to my return time), but when I came to the water section, I slowed down for photos. Then unbelievably, I allowed myself to become distracted by some water running down the hill with cool rock features above and I headed right up in pursuit.

    By the time I reached the turn on the Dutchman, I was nearly an hour past my presumed return time and still more than 30 minutes out. I hit the afterburners and made it back in 25 minutes. Just as I walked past the sign-in register, Dean was uncharacteristically silent as I saw the familiar green truck of my supervisor pulling in the lot. "Mark's here," I said, stating the obvious. Dean replied in a scolding tone, "Yeah, he was here for two hours while you were gone."
    ?! Uh-oh.
    I smiled and waved, to which I received an unsmiling nod as he got out of the truck. Uh-oh.
    "I see you made it out all right," he said a bit sternly, followed with uncomfortable silence all around. [Hiking alone - Strike 2] Hoping to keep it light, I said, "Of course! This is like my backyard." Why is he looking at me like that? He asks, "So, how was it out there?" (meaning the falls).
    ~ gulp ~ Incapable of lying, I promptly confess to all of the aforementioned activity. [Deviating (outrageously) from your stated plan - Strike 3... Game over. If you're wondering what happened to Strike 1, that was when he busted me on the exact same thing two weeks ago.]
    The silence now is deafening. Better think fast.

    Abruptly changing the subject, I said, "This is your lucky day! I've got something for you." I reached into my pack and pulled out a cookie (much like a rabbit out of a hat). I had brought two that I baked that morning - one to bribe Dean and one for myself, but I hadn't eaten mine. Mark is familiar with the cookie routine. Nevertheless, he is human, so it worked. However, I am not naive enough to think I'm off the hook, but at least I can escape without the lecture (for now).

    So, the moral of this story is... never leave home without cookies.

    OK, that's not it. I must have a learning disability because, all kidding aside, what I did went beyond stupid. I broke every hiking rule and a few Forest Service rules, too. Just because nothing bad happened doesn't make it any less stupid. (That was hard to say :oops: )
    Be smarter than me. Be safe out there.

    Happy Trails! :GB:
    First Water Upper Creek Loop
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    Decided to try and get one more hike out of the Supes. We thought it would be nasty weather conditions but it just ended up being a weird day weather-wise. Sometimes cold sometimes hot but mostly just one beautiful day in the Supes.

    Been wanting Black Mesa for a long long while and finally got my chance. We new by looking at the topos that we would fly through this trail so tacked on First Water Loop to finish out our hike. Sure enough we probably could have finished Black Mesa and been back at the TH by lunch.

    First Water kicked our butts last year on our maiden hike. In fact I would call it a flat out fail. This time we were successful but it still whooped our pumpkins. But if you don't mind a little bushwhacking and boulder hopping this trail was well worth the price of admission (Sore tootsies and a little blood letting). We some kind of deer, white-tail if I am being forced right now. I got pictures but I'll need to look closer. We also saw our second Gila Monster! Very exciting. But if it's flowers you're looking for, the best I've seen this season were on First Water. Black Mesa looked a little dry and slim pickings for blooms.

    We didn't get lost on First Water this time but we did add an unnecessary 1/2 mile total ignoring the cairns that lead up O'Grady Canyon. The trail that leaves Parker Pass actually keeps going, cutting right through O'Grady up and over into the next canyon which is West Boulder Creek. Once I realized that it was gonna keep going south I knew we need give a little more deference to cairns I skipped. Last time I lost the trail and I was determined not to play that game again. This time I kept to the trail and they still got me. It's a fun hike!

    Once we got out O'Grady the trail really goes faint to not there until it hits one of the washes that feeds First Water but we were prepared for that from our last attempt. Wendi did not like this section. Perhaps saving this hike for the end of day was not the best decision ever made cause the extensive boulder hopping down FW got old quick. I forgot how much was before the falls and how much came after. Wendi about had it at one point, then she remember her Hello Kitty candies and she perked right up.

    Once we got back on the Dutchman we were able to haul butt again and did. We treated ourselves to some Gold-strike Burgers at the Mining Camp and a couple of blue moons. Those are some huge burgers! Wendi could eat half, yours truly ended up having to eat her half too. I put all the weight right back on.

    We lost quite a bit of time as I getting a little better with our new camera so I started experimenting with some of the settings. I'll post them soon.
    First Water Upper Creek Loop
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    Met up with mnlumberjack about 0700. Had my water hiking shoes this week, but forgot my camera. It's always something. :-k At least I had my Blackberry, even though it takes pictures like vaseline is smeared on the lens. Made introductions, then hit the trail. Cruised the first 2.5 km, mostly on a path, until the path splits left / southeast. Followed First Water Creek right / south. Fitzski's marker is long gone. (Temporary nav aids can be useful, but should not be relied on, as they can easily go away ... mountains not so much. ;))

    Route-finding and scrambling skills immediately began being put to the test. Even though I got my feet wet a few times, I really did not need the shoes as the creek varied from intermittent to bone dry. (The shoes are mesh to allow water and sand to flow through, and they dry out in just a few minutes, even while being worn.) I was surprised, as I thought the recent snowfall would have provided some runoff. From a scenery standpoint it was disappointing, but from a hiking stand point made it was relief, as it made the scrambling easier: Instead of slipping off the rocks, I rubbed my fingertips raw instead.

    After 2.5 km of creek bed negotiation, we began breaking into the open. Per Fritzski' description, rather than following First Water Creek, we followed the contour of Hill 3399. As we approached Hill 3187, there was quite a bit of prickly pear and cats claw. Also, wondered if we should go between the "thumb" and the hill, or go right/east of the "thumb", then bend back. (We did the latter.)

    Began on the north side of O'Grady Canyon, switched to the south, as it was less slopy, and their appeared to be bent grass to follow. Crossed back to the north side of the O'Grady creek as we completed the 3/4 turn around Hill 3187. Some cairns along here helped us find easier routes through some small, but steep, washes. About 8 km into the hike, as we drew even with Hill 2992, to our east, we picked up a more defined path. There followed a 100m climb to the Hill 2927 saddle, where there was a great view of Weavers Needle. After that it was a 5 km cruise back to the trailhead and mnlumberjack's much appreciated MGD. :thanx:

    To borrow from another HAZard's recent encounter, this is not a purse hike. You will need route finding and scrambling skills. (The description says 0 -- it lies. ;))
    First Water Upper Creek Loop
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    First Water Upper Creek Loop

    I got a PM from KingSnake this week requesting a hiking partner on a hike into the Superstitions. His selected hike would be the Upper First Water Loop where we would meet at the First Water TH at around 7:00 and hit the trails at 7:30. I studied the previous triplogs and photos for this hike and it looked like it should be exciting, complete with running water following last weeks weather. So I agreed to meet him and go for the hike. :)

    The sun was showing beyond the horizon somewhere behind Weavers Needle as his car pulled into the parking lot and we introduced ourselves. We discussed the hike as we slipped into our respective hiking gear and soon we were logged into the book and on the trail. I had my GPS and he had printed out enlarged copies of the GPS route superimposed over the TOPO maps so we were confident we could find our way through the canyons and saddles along the loop.

    The first part of the trail went quickly along the well-beaten paths and we met two pairs of hikers out for an early morning start. As we arrived at our loop start/finish point, we opted to do it in a counter-clockwise direction heading South staying in the center of the creek bed. Fortunately and unfortunately, the creek only had water in the deeper pools so hiking was good but the anticipation of views of waterfalls was diminishing. Portions of the creek required climbing over some pretty large boulders and natural barricades, making for some interesting hiking.

    While there was water flowing in the narrow canyon, the amount was small and didn't offer much excitement, but made it necessary to backtrack and find a higher route around the blockades. The trails are poorly marked but you don't have a lot of choices as you are forced into bushwhacking mode to get through the heavy thorn infested brush. It occurred to me as I was mopping up my bloodied forearms and legs, that a hiker's biography should include blood type in case an emergency transfusion should be needed on the trails.

    We continued hiking the creek bed/canyon walls through a very scenic canyon with views of a desert that is beginning to spring into life (get it?). We finally emerged from the canyon and had to break away from the creek and hike through Prickly Pear infested foothills, working our way to the apex of the loop. Along the way was another unusual rock formation (a thumb) that looked like the rocks had been carefully placed into position almost like building a rock wall and further ahead was Weavers Needle.

    Then it was back down into the narrow O'Grady canyon and creek bed as we completed the turn and were now heading to the Northwest. Again, there was very little water in the creeks but the pools were deep enough to force us up along the canyon walls and into the stickery (that should be a word) brush and catsclaw. Along this portion of the route we were presented with pleasant views of Palomino Mountain and Black Top Mesa framed by the side hills of Parker Pass.

    Soon we were observing more hikers and we broke into the Lost Dutchman's Trail, leaving our wilderness trek behind us now. The rest of the hike back to the trail head was almost like hiking down a highway after the narrow canyons and canyon walls. We got back to the First Water TH around 1:30 to complete our hike where we removed our hiking gear and enjoyed a cool one while discussing the journey.

    This trip lasted for about 6 hours and my GPS showed 9.8 miles. A lot of the distance was due to back tracking, scaling the sides of the mountains and searching for trails. The trip was interesting and scenic but it could have been much better had the water been flowing to provide better views of the numerous waterfalls along the way. Thanks to KingSnake for inviting me to partner with him on this hike, it was a fun day. :y:
    First Water Upper Creek Loop
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    Lost the trail a few times on this one. Still managed to get it pretty close so a little extra mileage, plus had start from the over flow parking. We missed the turnoff towards Parker pass and continued following the creek down eventually trail blazing our way back to the Dutchman closer to 3/4 of mile south where should have after bushwhacking 1/2 a mile or so. The ducks (cairns) seemed like they could be refreshed, I did where I knew I was on trail and things got tricky but laying down ducks when you yourself a first timer seems like a mean thing to do the next guy. Will definitely do this hike again one thing your missing by following the leg north to Parker pass is a pool of water that is so deep that you can't see the bottom it's bit larger than a bathtub but I couldn't find a stick long enough to tell me for sure.
    First Water Upper Creek Loop
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    Out to the falls and back with some off-trail hiking along the ridge overlooking the creek to the northeast. I've always looked up at the cool rock features in this area, but this time I climbed up to investigate. I was not disappointed!

    After leaving the Dutchman trail and hiking in the creek a short while, I climbed up the low end of the ridge just to check it out. I didn't really expect to get anywhere from here, but once I got up there, it was an easy stroll among all those great rock formations in a gentle ascent of hills and valleys along the length of the creek before it turns to the south. It was beautiful up there and the views were quite stunning. The creek below was mostly dry in that section and the change of scenery was delightful.

    The climb down the high side wasn't too difficult and it put me right into the prettiest section of the creek. When I reached the falls, I was determined to get a picture of them from on top of the sheer rock wall on the left side of the pool. For some reason I believed that would be a killer angle for a photo. I went up from the side and approached it from the rear, but the climb was pretty dicey and I don't recommend it. The view from up there wasn't at all what I had in mind, so it wasn't worth the effort, anyway.

    The hike back through the creek was fairly easy with little water through much of it. Nice day!

    * I forgot to mention that First Water Road has recently been graded and it's as smooth as I've ever seen it. It was in terrible shape after that big storm, but all those spine-jarring ruts are gone now.

    Permit $$

    Map Drive
    FR / Dirt Road / Gravel - Car Okay

    To First Water Trailhead
    From Mesa follow Highway 60 East to Idaho Road. Turn North onto Idaho Road which is SR88 and follow North 2.2 miles. SR88 bends right just past Scenic St. and Idaho continues North. Be sure to go right and stay on SR88. Follow SR88 5.2 miles to the signed turnoff for First Water Trailhead, this is FR-78. Turn right on to FR-78 and follow 2.6 miles to the end.

    This trailhead feature restrooms without running water. The large parking area fills up in season. When full utilize the Horse Lot 0.5 miles back.

    From PHX (I-10 & AZ-51) 43.1 mi - about 59 mins
    From TUC (Jct 1-10 & Grant) 136 mi - about 2 hours 16 mins
    From FLG (Jct I-17 & I-40) 187 mi - about 3 hours 3 mins
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