Whoa, whoa is our plight!

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Jim_H
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Joined: Sep 08 2006 8:14 pm
City, State: Phoenix, AZ

Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by Jim_H » Mar 21 2018 6:18 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018 ... vive-water

Whoa to those, such as myself, dumb enough to choose to live in this hell hole, this unsustainable abomination in the desert, where it must be 115 most of the year, it is never cold or cool, people roast in January, and we apparently get all of out water from the over tapped Colorado. Whoa, to us!
Do you sense my sarcasm?

When ever I hear people say or write that sort of thing, you know they don't seem to know much about the place. The comments are enlightening. Sure, water use is way over what is sustainable but so is it in Florida, where it rains 50 inches a year! Anyone heard anything about California lately? Say, do you think the author would slam most cities in California, southern California especially, as would be fitting? Never forget that LA appropriated an entire river for it's sustainable use.

You don't have to travel much in Arizona to realize that we use massive amounts of water, sure, but agriculture, dairy and chickens and their feed use a disproportionately large amount of that. Golf courses, lawns, wasted water on landscaping, add to that exported crops, cotton, and other things, and there is a lot more water available for urban growth, no matter how hellish someone not from here must think Phoenix happens to be.
Last edited by Jim_H on Mar 21 2018 6:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Society's constraints are stifling! The only way to hike is fully nude!

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chumley
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by chumley » Mar 21 2018 7:38 pm

Similar to any argument these days, why can’t people stick to facts. It may be a valid argument but you undermine the whole thing when you support it with hyperbole instead of just sticking to the facts that should be more than enough to get your point across.
last summer 50 flights were grounded at Phoenix airport because the heat – which hit 47C (116F) – made the air too thin to take off safely.
False. Some flights were grounded because the type of aircraft involved did not have the necessary calculations in their manuals for temperatures above 116. The air was neither too hot nor “too thin” for aircraft to take off safely. As hundreds of others did and do, at and above 116!
The “heat island” effect keeps temperatures in Phoenix above 37C (98F) at night in summer.
Besides giving the impression that this is a regular occurrence... it’s actually NEVER happened! The warmest night at PHX was 96. Once.

Journalism is dead.

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arizona_water
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by arizona_water » Mar 21 2018 10:49 pm

@Jim_H
I hear similar arguments like this article, quite often. Since I care way too much about such things, I thought I would offer some additional facts:

You are mostly correct in your breakdown of water use in AZ. Statewide in 2016, about 74% of the total water demand came from agriculture. Municipal use was about 21%, and industrial was about 5% (http://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts). As for the point about golf courses, over 60% of golf course water demand in central AZ is met by reclaimed water. Central Arizona cities recycle and reuse more than 90% of their municipal water.

Addressing the arguments made by the article: Phoenix may not be sustainable, but we're attempting to make the most of our current situation. It's not all bad.
Last edited by arizona_water on Mar 21 2018 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- there's nothing like finding Water in the Desert -

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azbackpackr
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 22 2018 5:42 am

Arizona ought to look to Israel for water reclamation ideas. Israel leads the world, reclaiming 90% of their wastewater, followed by Spain at 20%. Israel has so much surplus water it exports it to neighboring countries, mainly to Jordan.
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
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DarthStiller
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by DarthStiller » Mar 22 2018 7:57 am

Greater Phoenix is good at recycling waste water, but most of it is used for cooling the Palo Verde nuclear power plant
I'm not sure if this true or not, but I tend to doubt this statement as well, knowing how much reclaimed water is used for golf courses and other irrigation.

Water is a big concern, but it is being looked at, constantly. This article fails to address that since the 80's per capita residential use of water has been greatly reduced in Phoenix and in Tucson. ADEQ is also on the cusp of allowing reclaimed water to be used as a source water for potable water after further treatment. This is pretty progressive, but the point of this article seems to be making the opposite claim about Phoenix and AZ in general, not to mention the sensationalism it's tinged with.
Last edited by DarthStiller on Mar 22 2018 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Hansenaz
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City, State: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by Hansenaz » Mar 22 2018 8:14 am

Pretty easy to write an article like that and pile-on with the tsk-tsks in the comments. I'm not a big fan of Phoenix but if it was an investment I wouldn't short it.

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Jim_H
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by Jim_H » Mar 22 2018 8:06 pm

There seems to be a perennial attack on the desert cites as doomed because it gets hot here, and we don't have rivers running everywhere. If I take issue with Phoenix, it isn't the summer heat which I enjoy or the lack of most surface water, it's the winter air pollution and traffic. No one ever seems to write a scathing article about that!
Society's constraints are stifling! The only way to hike is fully nude!

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azbackpackr
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 23 2018 5:13 am

@Jim_H
Most city people don't think twice about traffic and air pollution, because they have always lived with those. In fact, I don't think the average person even notices the smog. They think it is normal "haze."

Air pollution from the copper smelters in Nacozari and Cananea, Sonora, used to really affect Southern Arizona. I wonder if that is still the case?
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.

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chumley
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by chumley » Mar 23 2018 2:55 pm

@azbackpackr
Speaking of plight, Happy Birthday!! :y:
Profound observer

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Alston_Neal
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by Alston_Neal » Mar 23 2018 3:53 pm

chumley wrote:Speaking of plight, Happy Birthday!!
Sorry, but Happy Birthday!
[ photo ]
Last edited by Alston_Neal on Mar 23 2018 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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azbackpackr
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 24 2018 5:17 am

@chumley
@Alston_Neal
Thanks! Big party last night, good times! ! They actually put 65 candles on my cake, and I blew them out with one giant puff.
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.

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KwaiChang
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by KwaiChang » Mar 24 2018 11:20 am

Hi Liz - a belated Happy Birthday!!!
Out of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most.....

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azbackpackr
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 24 2018 5:50 pm

@KwaiChang
Thanks! I guess I should have extended party invitations to this group, but it's a long drive for most.
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.

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big_load
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by big_load » Mar 24 2018 7:38 pm

azbackpackr wrote:
Mar 24 2018 5:17 am
@chumley
@Alston_Neal
Thanks! Big party last night, good times! ! They actually put 65 candles on my cake, and I blew them out with one giant puff.
Has it been that long since your last big birthday? Time sure flies. Happy Birthday!

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azbackpackr
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by azbackpackr » Mar 24 2018 8:10 pm

@big_load
Yes, 5 years, if you came on the Salt River rafting on my 60th. I can't remember which year you went with us, though. Guess I could look at photosets.
There is a point of no return unremarked at the time in most lives. Graham Greene The Comedians
A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.

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johnlp
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City, State: chandler,az

Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by johnlp » Mar 25 2018 11:48 am

A couple things about the misleading article. First, the AZ Dept of Water Resources (ADWR) will not allow valley cities to further develop without a "100 year assured water supply". Cities must prove they can supply water for the next 100 years. There is water available to support growth. Just very expensive.
Most of the valley's reclaimed water does not go to Palo Verde for cooling. Palo Verde receives ~30 million gallons a day (MGD) from 91st Avenue Phoenix treatment plant. The 91st Ave plant produces 140 mgd. Chandler alone produces 28 mgd of reclaimed water.
“Good people drink good beer.” Hunter S Thompson

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Hansenaz
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by Hansenaz » Mar 29 2018 3:11 pm

@johnlp
Thanks for the facts John. Politically slanted articles need "daylight". Unfortunately probably most Guardian readers prefer the slanted version which fits the preferred narrative.

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arizona_water
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by arizona_water » Mar 29 2018 4:19 pm

@johnlp
Just one technical correction:
The assured and adaquate water supply certificates only apply to developments within the five active management areas (AMAs) and to a few exceptions that have opted-in (see second link below). Certificates of adequacy are provided outside of the AMAs, by request, but are not mandatory. This is important if you are buying land outside of an AMA.
(See: http://apps.azsos.gov/public_services/T ... /12-15.pdf & https://new.azwater.gov/sites/default/f ... ctions.pdf)
- there's nothing like finding Water in the Desert -

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johnlp
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by johnlp » Mar 29 2018 6:43 pm

@arizona_water
Thanks for the clarification. 82% of the State's population lives in one of the five AMA's.
“Good people drink good beer.” Hunter S Thompson

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Jim_H
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Re: Whoa, whoa is our plight!

Post by Jim_H » Aug 29 2019 8:06 am

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/cu ... at-875198/

This summer's heat just won't end, and it will be 111 degrees, or very near on Saturday, in the only city in Arizona that matter: Tolleson. No, Phoenix, Phoenix. That said, I thought I would revisit a topic that keeps getting published online, Phoenix is the perennial city to bash when it gets hot. Because!
The city of Phoenix has no master plan to deal with heat,
No master plan!?! No Master plan!? Someone get a national socialist candidate for City Hall on the ballot, we need MASTER PLAN!
Global warming is killing us all! Your baby is going to burn, in HELL!
OK, that wasn't in the article, but since the homeless in Phoenix literally fry on sidewalks like intoxicated eggs, and 33 year old Indians in India die in street fights over thimbles of water, like some mad Max scene out of a Bollywood knock-off, clearly we're next!

That said, this summer without a pool, I will admit I am finding Phoenix to be less than desirable for living in. Perhaps, one might say.......unlivable. Gasp! Then I was told I could poach a pool yesterday, and all was well. 90 minutes in cool refreshing chlorinated water under the shade of a large, mature oak planted in a backyard that has probably 40+ years of flood irrigation. It was lovely.

But, yeah, without pool access, and with the only outlet for activity outside of a house, office, or mall, being oven roasting parks or hikes, the city does slowly start to feel unlivable to normal people, I would think. I does to me. It doesn't even have to be 110+ for that, though. Even a more modest 105 can get old.

Still, unlivable? There is a difference between boring, and actually being no longer livable habitat.
Society's constraints are stifling! The only way to hike is fully nude!

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