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What rules do you follow about performing trail maintenance? On several of the hikes I've done recently, I've been tempted to whip out a knife or pocket saw and cut back some of the catclaw and overgrowth over the trail, but I haven't done it yet.

I'm not about to bring a machete with me...yet, but there are some places where I felt the catclaw wanted my shirt more than I did and it would be rather easy to snip off a few branches of the stuff.

Is there a difference between doing this on federal wilderness vs state land? Would you be breaking any laws or do you need a permit? Are there any protected plants in Arizona you shouldn't trim? (Obviously I'm not talking about hacking down a saguaro, just typical shrubbery you would encounter and only the stuff growing over the trail.)

In an ideal world the Forest Service would have all the trails in perfect shape, but it seems as when I get off of the most popular trails that most are overdue for maintenance. On the other hand, hacking away at the vegetation isn't exactly harmonious with leave no trace philosophy.

Matt Hoffman wrote:.............P.S. Stiller does have wilderness ethics. On a hike this past weekend, he didn't build any cairns or prune any bushes. Neither did I. He did however, pick up a Gu wrapper that I accidently dropped on the trail. He politely informed me of my mis-doing, then kicked me in the shins and told me to never litter again!

Did THAT leave a trace?

hikeaz wrote:Did THAT leave a trace?

In case someone out there is wondering (not you hikeaz), I was just kidding about the shin kicking.

In response to Stiller's reply:
OK I'm back on my meds . . . :GB:
Stiller, you seem like a decent guy and in many ways you are right. I wasn't raggin' on you :sorrry: but on the concept of cairns everywhere.

CAIRNS
My attitude toward cairns is probably closer to Tim's & Rob's. I have appreciated a well-placed cairn in my time. Especially at a significant turn or junction. On Corridor-type or Threshold-type trails they really aren't needed, so there I don't care. On Primitive-type and wilderness-type trails I would hope for and expect judicious placement.

I just don't want to see people building cairns all over the place. A little goes a long way. If cairns make it too easy for inexperienced hikers to get in over their heads, cairns aren't good. If cairns help otherwise competent hikers to get out of tough situations, that's perfect.

PRUNING
Now back to the topic of pruning - I am totally ambivalent. If I expect it to be bad, I will dress accordingly.

LEAVE NO TRACE
I learned to hunt & track. I can hike such that you would need to be a very experienced tracker to find my trail. And with a week or a rainfall, all trace will be gone. But I recognize that if I do leave a faint trail in a popular area, chances are hordes will expand it. I'm very conscientious on formal trails. Formal trails are constructed and maintained to benefit the hiker and the environment. I appreciate the efforts of VoAZ and ATA and the Forest Service.

Matt Hoffman wrote:

hikeaz wrote:Did THAT leave a trace?

In case someone out there is wondering (not you hikeaz), I was just kidding about the shin kicking.

Well, if you borrowed stillers shin protector/gaiter-armor thingies, you'd not have felt it ANYWAY!

In response to hikeaz's reply:
Those gaitors made the catclaw whimper!

al1inaz wrote: I have appreciated a well-placed cairn in my time. Especially at a significant turn or junction. On Corridor-type or Threshold-type trails they really aren't needed, so there I don't care. On Primitive-type and wilderness-type trails I would hope for and expect judicious placement.

I just don't want to see people building cairns all over the place.

This is pretty much the way I feel. I'm quite often happy to have them, but sometimes user-built cairns mislead me onto networks of impromptu side trails. That's one reason I'm so darn good at backtracking.

I think then we can agree that when they're placed strategically in the fainter portions of trails, they are quite useful. As far as seeing them in high traffic highway areas, I'm rather ambivalent on that myself. On one hand it is rather amusing (and stupid), but as far as getting upset, I only think how the energy is wasted on that when it should be put somewhere else. I would also rather see a cairn than a piece of plastic ribbon tied to a branch or a spray paint mark on a rock, a la Siphon Draw and Picketpost Mt.

As far as my snakeproof gaiters, I go prepared (I guess that's my survivalist ethic). I've had a few run ins with snakes and I just feel much better having them. I never play with snakes or provoke them, but I've walked thru some of those trails in the eastern Supes that get very overgrown and alot of the time you can't see the ground at all. If I'm five miles from my car and my leg is turning black from the knee down, its gonna be a long day. They do also come in very handy for the catclaw, I've learned.

Stiller wrote:I would also rather see a cairn than a piece of plastic ribbon tied to a branch or a spray paint mark on a rock, a la Siphon Draw and Picketpost Mt.

PLASTIC RIBBONS & SPRAYPAINT - don't even get me started. Keep those Dam taggers in the urban jungle where they belong. Ooops here they come with my meds and straitjacket. I guess it's back into the padded room again for tonight. This rehab thing isn't working. REHAB is for QUITTERS. Maybe I'll get some time again tomorrow on the computer if I'm good and don't bite anyone. :twisted:

Buzzworms can be your friends if you know how to show them love.

PS: I'm going to the Canyon tomorrow. I know - First I have to admit that I have a problem.

Having never done either...what is the difference between clipping catclaw and bushwhacking?

clipping is taking care of it

bushwhacking is it taking care of you

Thanks, Joe.

OK, so is it alright to bushwhack catclaw?
:

Bushwhacking is forcing through the brush. You can bushwhack through catclaw but it'll tear you up in the process. Once you get nabbed by catclaw you have two choices.

Step backwards to let the razor claws disengage

Force through in which case you end up with torn skin and loss of blood (not to mention an open wound waiting for infection) or the smaller claws just rip off the branch and stay in your skin then your forearms and shins feel like sand paper.

Yikes!

Sounds like stepping back, if you have the opportunity, would be the best choice.
:stretch:

I really appreciate knowing the difference. Am going to look in the flora section to see what catclaw looks like.
Thanks again.

If you are hiking off-trail you don't want to be clipping any bushes!! You wear tough long sleeves, tough long pants, gaiters and leather gloves.

Clipping bushes is only for established trails that are on the maps, that sometimes become overgrown. We are not supposed to be going out there and making new trails anywhere we want using clippers! (I'm not saying you guys were doing that, it just needed to be said in case someone not in-the-know is reading this.)

catclaw looks somewhat similar to so many other bushes, you may be pushing through and not even notice until you are bitten! :twisted:

Shucks, looks like I'll have to leave my rose shears at home. (This is a joke)

Is it possible a+b=c?

a: ideal (i) wilderness ethics "leave no trace"
and
b: reality (r) survivalist bushwhacking
equals
c: action (a) once in a great while a very specific on trail thrashing and thwacking might be ok.

i+r=a

Ergo: Upon a patch of terrorizing catclaw one may take one's fingernail clipper and do away with a bit.

Am I any where near the point of this?

Hmmm... well, since you are usually on the move, with destination in mind, when you get tangled up in it, I think what usually happens is you just eyeball that spot and try not to go that way on the way back! I'm talking about if you are off-trail bushwhacking to a peak, etc.

I got cat-clawed on a recent hike to Mt. Kimball near Tucson--on the trail! I hadn't hiked that trail in awhile, nor had I been cat-clawed in a long time--we really don't have too much of that stuff up here in the White Mountains. I got this great big bloody scratch on my hand. I remarked, "Gee, I'd forgotten that the bushes attack you around here!" Battle scars--part of the adventure!

Out in the burned area on the west Kaibab (out along Kanab Creek Wilderness), there's all kinds of wicked thorny plants trying to kick your butt. Even trying to wade around the worst of it, I still got stabbed through my Carharrts several times a day when we were out there tracking. Huge deer hunting area, so the birds were all over the place, and we had to wade through these nasty bushes to see where the heck they were finding stuff. I don't know if it was cat-claw or something else much more fiendish. All I know is my thighs and calves were punctured despite my heavy pants (and sometimes long underwear too).

fine weave kevlar is your only hope

One run-in with catclaw and you'll never forget it. I have a love-hate relationship with that stuff. I have no reason to love it, and every reason to hate it.