Trail maintenance?

[nonot]

What rules do you follow about performing trail maintenance? On several of the hikes I've done recently, I've been tempted to whip out a knife or pocket saw and cut back some of the catclaw and overgrowth over the trail, but I haven't done it yet.

I'm not about to bring a machete with me...yet, but there are some places where I felt the catclaw wanted my shirt more than I did and it would be rather easy to snip off a few branches of the stuff.

Is there a difference between doing this on federal wilderness vs state land? Would you be breaking any laws or do you need a permit? Are there any protected plants in Arizona you shouldn't trim? (Obviously I'm not talking about hacking down a saguaro, just typical shrubbery you would encounter and only the stuff growing over the trail.)

In an ideal world the Forest Service would have all the trails in perfect shape, but it seems as when I get off of the most popular trails that most are overdue for maintenance. On the other hand, hacking away at the vegetation isn't exactly harmonious with leave no trace philosophy.

[Al_HikesAZ]

Is there a difference between doing this on federal wilderness vs state land?

You can't use power equipment in a Federal Wilderness. Even the Forest Service is prohibited from using power equipment in a wilderness - not even to fight fires.

In an ideal world the Forest Service would have all the trails in perfect shape,

They have a limited budget and do the best they can with what they have. There are many dedicated FS employees. Resources are allocated to preventing damage. This means removing downed trees where the trail is re-routing and could create erosion problems. The inability to use power equipment also limits what they can do with the budget. And as you observed, the most used trails will get the most attention.

I'm not about to bring a machete with me...yet,

Don't waste your time with a machete, they don't work on catclaw - it's so flexible it just bends or whips out of the way. Only pruning shears.

[te_wa]

in front of everyone, i disagree. I say get poked and scratched. its what makes a great time. then you'll have stories to tell about all those scars.

[mttgilbert]

I am a volunteer crew lead with Volunteers for Outdoor Arizona (a local nonprofit that specializes in trail work). I've done quite a bit of trail work in the last couple years. I would say don't do any kind of trail clearing what-so-ever. I have several reasons. 1st, in order to do any kind of trail maintenance you have to have the land managers permission. They are usually glad to give it but without it you may be doing more harm than good. Which brings me to my second point; Cutting back plants (especially the larger ones, but it goes for the smaller ones too) if you don't know what you are doing you can do more damage to the plants than good for the trail. Cutting plants invites disease, which causes plant deaths, which leads to greater erosion (which is specifically what trails are designed to fight). Third, I go out on trails (in part) to commune with nature. As far as I'm concerned seeing your knife, or machete, or whaterver marks all over things is not part of nature. If you can't deal with wading through the cats-claw, find more docile trails.

If you really want to get out and make a difference on trails, find a local organization (VOAZ, the ATA, or WCA) and volunteer with them. That way you will have the benefit of the knowledge, training, and supervision that trail-building groups provide.

[Moovyoaz]

Personally I think a little trail maintenance in moderation is fine, especially when it comes to catclaw. I'd like to see the horticulture study that says cutting catclaw promotes disease and erosion. It's like pruning bougainvillea; the more you cut it back and water stress it, the more it blooms! This weekend a group of us hiked Hoolie Bacon, Red Tanks, and back out Peters Trail to Tortilla TH. Two fellow hikers brought along hand clippers and worked away, with the rest of us clearing the debris (yes, Matt, that was us clearing your way!) and rebuilding rock cairns. A little common sense and effort can make things better for all of us.

[hikeaz]

I am a volunteer crew lead with Volunteers for Outdoor Arizona (a local nonprofit that specializes in trail work). I've done quite a bit of trail work in the last couple years. I would say don't do any kind of trail clearing what-so-ever. I have several reasons. 1st, in order to do any kind of trail maintenance you have to have the land managers permission. They are usually glad to give it but without it you may be doing more harm than good. Which brings me to my second point; Cutting back plants (especially the larger ones, but it goes for the smaller ones too) if you don't know what you are doing you can do more damage to the plants than good for the trail. Cutting plants invites disease, which causes plant deaths, which leads to greater erosion (which is specifically what trails are designed to fight). Third, I go out on trails (in part) to commune with nature. As far as I'm concerned seeing your knife, or machete, or whaterver marks all over things is not part of nature. If you can't deal with wading through the cats-claw, find more docile trails.



If you really want to get out and make a difference on trails, find a local organization (VOAZ, the ATA, or WCA) and volunteer with them. That way you will have the benefit of the knowledge, training, and supervision that trail-building groups provide.

As anyone that hikes can attest, horses do tremendous, sometime irreperable, damage to the tread on trails - leading to monsterous amounts of erosion. What is the position of VoAz regarding horse traffic, Matt?



re. "As far as I'm concerned seeing your knife, or machete, or whaterver marks all over things is not part of nature. If you can't deal with wading through the cats-claw, find more docile trails."

The trails had to be BUILT; correct? I can't presume that they were built AROUND every piece of vegetation. Even currently-made trails destroy vegetation. Seems to me that if it's catclaw (and other blood-letters) you're after, that maybe, respectfully, OFF-trail is the place to be?

[hikeaz]

Is there a difference between doing this on federal wilderness vs state land?

You can't use power equipment in a Federal Wilderness. Even the Forest Service is prohibited from using power equipment in a wilderness - not even to fight fires.

In an ideal world the Forest Service would have all the trails in perfect shape,

They have a limited budget and do the best they can with what they have. There are many dedicated FS employees. Resources are allocated to preventing damage. This means removing downed trees where the trail is re-routing and could create erosion problems. The inability to use power equipment also limits what they can do with the budget. And as you observed, the most used trails will get the most attention.

I'm not about to bring a machete with me...yet,

Don't waste your time with a machete, they don't work on catclaw - it's so flexible it just bends or whips out of the way. Only pruning shears.

I have seen them using power drills in the wilderness and just this past W/E saw a power drill bit that they left in the sign post @ Hoolie/Red Tanks - albeit minimal, more of my tax money wasted.

Why is it, pray tell, that the NFS seems to have seven employees and volunteers standing around at the Peralta T/H, but none on any of the backcountry, if any of, the trails?
Ever try and glean a reliable water report from the Tonto NFS office? There are dedicated employees, yes, but judging from their new office on Higley and their wealth of $40,000.00 pickup trucks, they're doing just fine on funds; they just seem a bit misdirected on where to SPEND them. I, for one, do not buy their "underfunded" rhetoric.

[Hoffmaster]

Two fellow hikers brought along hand clippers and worked away, with the rest of us clearing the debris (yes, Matt, that was us clearing your way!) and rebuilding rock cairns. A little common sense and effort can make things better for all of us.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me or Matt Gilbert, but the hand clipper work that hikeaz performed on the Peters Trail did not enhance my trip. It didn't take away from it either. I appreciate what you guys were doing to some extent, but on the other hand I think it is unnecessary. Personally, I want to be on the trails that nature is reclaiming. I find them to be more interesting, not "overgrown."

[scorpion scus]

not only that it keeps the lightweights away. so minimal or no trail maintanance is good for me

[Hoffmaster]

What happened to Matt Gilbert's post? That was good stuff!

not only that it keeps the lightweights away. so minimal or no trail maintanance is good for me

Mike, what's wrong with ultra-lighters? I'm thinking about steering in that direction as I replace some of my gear in the near future. I'll be leaving you in the dust!

Long live catclaw!!! :twisted:

[AZLOT69]

I applaud those who pitch in at a little maintenance..........how do you think all the trails got there in the first place, the government didn't do it !

[DarthStiller]

Trimming is ok. But it seems as useful as trying to kill bugs and flies: there's way too much to really make that much of a difference.

The one thing I have always appreciated is the cairns that people build. Especially in areas where the trail fades off or braids. To anyone who has done or will do that, I say "thank you". I know I should take the time once in a while to do that, but never do. :roll: I know a few times seeing a cairn placed in the right area has saved me a few hours of bushwhacking. When you're lost, there can never be too many.

I should maybe resolve to make a point of building at least one cairn for every hike I do ("Build a Cairn - Save a Life"). If everyone did that, the faintest trails would probably be marked like South Kaibab and Bright Angel.

[Al_HikesAZ]

I should maybe resolve to make a point of building at least one cairn for every hike I do . . . If everyone did that, the faintest trails would probably be marked like South Kaibab and Bright Angel.

And why is this a good thing? : In too many places there are way too many cairns. I'm thinking about resolving to destroy some cairns. LEAVE NO TRACE dam-mit. Do you have wilderness ethics? I don't want every trail to be a South Kaibab, Bright Angel or Piestewa Peak. plz: Those are like hiking the I-10. Maybe I'm just unlucky and always finding idiotic cairns where there is absolutely no need for them. I'll take catclaw over idiotic cairns any day. Nothing personal Stiller, but if I find you building a cairn, I'll show you how a cairn should be built. LEAVE NO TRACE. Let us hone our trail skills and enjoy the wilderness the way it should be. Thank you.

Some of my best hikes have been where the trials are the faintest and I've had to work. And I know that few have been there and few will ever be there.

[Hoffmaster]

I should maybe resolve to make a point of building at least one cairn for every hike I do . . . If everyone did that, the faintest trails would probably be marked like South Kaibab and Bright Angel.

And why is this a good thing? : In too many places there are way too many cairns. I'm thinking about resolving to destroy some cairns. LEAVE NO TRACE dam-mit. Do you have wilderness ethics?

Holy smokes! Talk about passion!
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think you misunderstood Stiller. I don't think he was saying that everyone SHOULD build a cairn till the trails are over marked. I think he was having a second thought about his previous sentence.
But hey, I agree...there are too many cairns out there. But I also think the experience is what you make of it. If you want challenge, don't hike the western Supes, corridor trails in the GC, and leave the GPS at home.

P.S. Stiller does have wilderness ethics. On a hike this past weekend, he didn't build any cairns or prune any bushes. Neither did I. He did however, pick up a Gu wrapper that I accidently dropped on the trail. He politely informed me of my mis-doing, then kicked me in the shins and told me to never litter again!

[Davis2001r6]

Any trail is going to look like S. Kaibab or Bright Angel if it see's 100+ people a day. I doubt remote trails in the supes see 1 person a day on average.

If you want to do some trail "trimming" I say go for it, I'm sure as heck not going to complain against it.

There are a lot of places were I wonder why there are cairns, then again there are some places where I' very glad to see that cairn or two to help me along the way.

I did rincon peak a few weeks back and the trees have little metal markers in them. On the lower portions of the trail I was like WTF?, but once I got to ankle/ knee deep snow, I was very glad to see those markers on the trees.

[PaleoRob]

In response to davis2001r6's reply:

There are a lot of places were I wonder why there are cairns, then again there are some places where I' very glad to see that cairn or two to help me along the way.

Precisely. I often kick over cairns on well maintained trails, especially in stream beds. If the trail is following a stream with no branches, why do you need a cairn?
On slickrock, though, I generally leave them where they are - often they're the only way to find the trail, if a trail it indeed is.

[DarthStiller]

I will revise my comment as far as all trails looking like the South Kaibab and Bright Angel. Obviously, that wouldn’t be great for a lot of the places in the eastern Supes, as well as many other remote trails.

I don’t see anything wrong with cairns as far as marking and maintaining trails. It’s a very natural way to mark a trail, much better than using the bright orange tape wrapped around tree branches that I’ve occasionally seen. As far as the Leave No Trace ethic goes, I agree with that, but let’s not kid ourselves. If you’re out on a trail, you’re going to leave some trace. THE TRAIL ITSELF is a trace, literally! If you’re on it, you’re contributing to it, and you’re leaving a trace, so please hold off on the condescension.

Part of my opinion on this has been formed from having the mishap of getting lost, like I’m sure we’ve all had to some extent. A challenge is nice, but when you get to the point of not being able to find your way back and maybe running out of water, you’re perspective on that begins to change. Since I bought my GPS 4 years ago, I haven’t needed cairns as much as enjoyed them as a convenience, but I do know that there are people who go out unprepared (whether they should or not is another debate) and cairns can make a difference for them. No, we don’t need to alter the wilderness for the casual hikers, but making a temporary pile of rocks that nature can easily sweep away is hardly an offense to me.

I think, then, my biggest point is that a cairn can very literally save someone’s life. Is that not the most important ethic that there is? Or do experienced hikers lives take preference in this matter for the sake of our pretending we’re not scarring the wilderness to any extent by being there?

[joebartels]

Wonder if 50 years from now the obscure trails will become even more obscure due to modern gps ease of use / lack of cairns/maintenance?

Still interested in knowing if pruning is allowed on federal land.

I thought I had photos of a chainsaw crew in the Four Peaks from April 1997. I can't find them, that was so many hard drives ago... should've stuck with HAZ, the dependable archive!

[te_wa]

ive been known to kick over a few cairns myself. but then ive added to them as well. i dont mind a cairn as mentioned above.. if its necessary. anything over 4-5 flat rocks tall is just ugly, so if you rebuild them, keep em petite.
im glad to have rebuilt the (lack) of cairns on Peters Mesa last month, id rather see a few stacked cairns than have new and unnecessary trails criss-crossing everywhere


"oh my gawd, becka, this place is gross! theres all these sticky bushes and OOH! a bee! get it away get it away! i hate nature. its so dirty! cmon, becka, lets totally go shopping" : queen :

if the above paragraph describes you, stay out of the Supes

[Nighthiker]

I was pruning the apple trees at Reavis as was told tht I was not allowed. I have some friends who have been pruning the brush along trails in the Eastern Superstition Wilderness who have the blessing of the forest service.