Snowbowl Snowmaking

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chumley
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Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by chumley »

Dare I start a HAZ thread on this topic?

As some of you may have noticed, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals today overturned their previous decision, which now paves the way for the upgrading of some facilities at the Arizona Snowbowl, as well as the installation of snowmaking equipment using A+ relcaimed wastewater from Flagstaff.

Originally, three judges from the same court ruled that the plan would infringe on the religious freedoms of several Native American tribes in northern Arizona who view the mountain as a sacred religious site.

In today's ruling, the full court of 12 judges ruled 9-3 in favor of the US Forest Service and Arizona Snowbowl:
Friday's ruling sympathizes with the tribes' religious beliefs but points out that there is no likelihood of ecological damage from use of the reclaimed water, nor would any tribal members be denied access to worship. The spiritual effect, it opines, is not substantially harmed to prohibit the resort's plans.

“Were it otherwise,” it reads, “any action the federal government were to take, including action on its own land, would be subject to the personalized oversight of millions of citizens. Each citizen would hold an individual veto to prohibit the government action solely because it offends his religious beliefs, sensibilities or tastes, or fails to satisfy his religious desires. Further, giving one religious sect a veto over the use of public park land would deprive others of the right to use what is, by definition, land that belongs to everyone.”
As an avid skier, I'm personally pleased with the decision for my own selfish reasons. I'd like to think that those selfish reasons don't sway my objectivity in the argument either, which also agrees with the decision.

After years of proposals, studies, public input, and meetings with concerned parties following the normal procedures required by the Forest Service, and after the EPA and ADEQ cleared the use of the reclaimed water, the Forest Service approved the plan set forth by the lessee of that land (Snowbowl). Since they apparently did everything they were supposed to do, and got all the approvals required of them according to the book, and the plan was approved, my opinion is that the people who didn't want to see it happen (and subsequently the courts) should accept the decision and stay out of it.

Of course, I post this here because we all like the outdoors and have different views on issues of preservation and access so I'm curious what others think about this story.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Jim »

I would rather they not, or they just close the place down. I could still get to Humphrey from the Inner Basin in winter if I really wanted. In a town which tells it's citizens we don't have enough water for 20 years from now, why should we make a commitment to sell water that could be further treated and reused in the city. Then again, I'm leaving so it really doesn't matter. I actually kinda wish the tribes would pool their money and buy the resort. They could either close it down or run it as is without artificial snow.

I don't know about this tube park, but it sounds like an eyesore that will mar the view of Hart Prairie. If the need exist for a tube park, I think it should be built in Flagstaff. It could use sewage water, and be run on 5 year contracts or something. Plus, it might help out with the lack of sled hills that has happened as more places are fenced off. Why force people to drive the already clogged road to Snowbowl. 180 south is a nightmare at 5pm on a busy Saturday in January, why add to that?


BTW: I'm curious as to how man people have smelled vaporizing reclaimed water? I used to deliver to construction sites that were spraying it, and the Cardinals Practice Field near my apartment is irrigated with it. It stinks!! It smells a lot like the sewage plant on UF's campus in Gainesville. Basically, its the smell of de-nitrification, or nitrogen compounds leaving the water. It isn't nice. I wouldn't want to do anything on that. It gets on you, too, so you'll smell like it. Then again, in winter, when I hike past most people at Snowbowl, I think they stink to begin with, so maybe it will be an improvement. Seriously though, I just wouldn't want to ski it.

This last part is something you could do anywhere there is discharged waste water. Bring out a Geiger counter. Hospitals discharge radioactive waste to the Municipal water treatment facility from various radioactive procedures they conduct on patients. I wonder if there would be any elevated levels from the routine background level. Probably not more than what is found in the radioactive layer up at the canyon.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by azbackpackr »

A Geiger counter? Rob has one! PageRob, where are you? Jim needs your Geiger counter!

I too have mixed feelings about it, since it really does offend the tribes. I have heard some of the skiers say they are a bit offended by the idea as well.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by PaleoRob »

Show me the discharge pipe and I'll bring the pocket Geiger.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by DarthStiller »

Jim_H wrote:I'm curious as to how man people have smelled vaporizing reclaimed water?
I work in this field and can attest to first hand experience of not experiencing bad smells from the reclaimed water where I work. I'm not aware of the extent of the treatment of the water in Flag. If it's stored in a lake, that is something that actually degrades the quality of the water after it's treated since algae begins to grow. and if odors were a very common problem, I doubt that the golf courses for the well to do community in the Phoenix area would tolerate it. Denitrification is a biological process that is now very commonly designed into any tertiary treatment and is mandated for water that will be used as reclaimed. In most cases, the total N content must be below 10 mg/L, and most plants treat well below that amount. By the time the water gets to its end use, a very significant amount of the denit process has already occurred.

As for the tribes being offended, since this land is not reservation land, I kind of get offended at the idea that one group of people can attempt to claim exclusive rights to a land based on their religious/cultural beliefs.

I doubt that you would find any radioactivity in the water, but it doesn't hurt to check. I've worked in this field for over 18 years now and have never seen any of the guys in the collection system suffer any effects of radiation sickness. :roll:
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Jim »

The level of radiation would be low, and I wasn't implying that it would make people sick, but hospitals do discharge radioactive waste into the municipal systems. I just wonder how significant it becomes in the environment.

As far as the smell goes, it's fowl for me. It smells pretty bad the at the leaching pond by I-40. It has a weird sweet smell, but not good.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by hippiepunkpirate »

Reclaimed water produced in Flag is rated "Class A+", which would be considered safe drinking water in some areas of the country. Regardless, I don't give two pumpkins about snowbowl or snowmaking. I think hauling water that far up the mountain so it can be made into "snow" and bunch of white people can play around on it is ridiculous. I also think the ski runs are ugly, and would really prefer not to see anymore new construction. And I'm sick of all the college kids talking about snowboarding. Next person that says "I can't wait to go snowboarding!" gets stabbed in the eyes! :x It's even more ridiculous when someone tells you "I decided to go to NAU so I could go snowboarding all the time." Wow, what a great academic decision!
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by DarthStiller »

hippiepunkpirate wrote:I think hauling water that far up the mountain so it can be made into "snow" and bunch of white people can play around on it is ridiculous.
That's a whole different argument/issue, and not one that I really disagree with.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Jim »

If our reclaimed water is rated A+, then we shouldn't be dumping it for people to play on, we should be DRINKING it!

Still, while it has been 2 1/2 years since I got a nice mist bath of the stuff, the reclaimed water always had a funky odor that fresh water doesn't, as does the pond south of I-40 between Butler and Lone Tree, to which water is release.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Jim »

What I really don't get, especially after all of the money that must have been spent on Lawyers, is why the tribes just don't form a corporation and buy out Snowbowl. Seems they could buy and run it as is, or shut it down and remove everything, or run it for a while and then shut it down, or close the Agassiz Lift and improve or just keep open the lower lifts, something like that. It seems that even in bad years, the place makes money, so they could at least break even and then be able to close it down. Sometimes being practical is better than stubborn. Besides, any impartial outside observer would have a hard time believing all the involved tribes are only fighting the expansion for religious reasons, especially when the White Mt Apache and Mescalero Apache have ski resort right on the side of their sacred mountains. I don't think the Mescalero are involved, but the White Mt Apache are involved in this suite.
On June 23, 2005 a lawsuit was filed in Arizona District Court, Plaintiffs/Appellants the Navajo Nation, the White Mountain Apache Tribe, the Yavapai-Apache Tribe, the Havasupai Tribe, Rex Tilousi, Dianna Uqualla, the Sierra Club, the Center for Biological Diversity, and the Flagstaff Activist Network (hereinafter collectively referred to as "Plaintiffs") sought declaratory and injunctive relief for violations of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA), the Administrative Procedure Act (APA), the National Historic Preservation Act (NHPA), the National Forest Management Act (NFMA), and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA). The district court entered a final Order and Judgment in favor of the US Forest Service and Arizona Snowbowl on January 11, 2006. This judgment disposed of all parties' claims.
http://www.savethepeaks.org/index.php?o ... 3&Itemid=7
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by chumley »

I admittedly don't know the details, but I'm pretty sure that Snowbowl is privately owned. That means that they don't have to sell to anybody. Of course, any smart businessperson will sell if offered the correct price.

The other problem with your suggestion is that the ski area is on public land leased to Snowbowl by the National Forest Service. There may be some stipulations in that lease about selling to another management entity. Remember, the land owner (Forest Service) WANTS to have a ski area there. They profit from the lease, and its a political play with city/county/state powers, who also profit from visitors using the ski area. (At least in theory).

I doubt that the FS would allow the sale of the ski area management to a company that didn't sign a long-term agreement to run it as a ski area/revenue-generating operation.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Jim »

Provided it could be bought, I do suggest first running it as is, and I see no reason why they couldn't be practical and keep things as is without wasting water. That said, you want them to make the snow, they are permitted to do so, so you'll get your way and by next winter you can ski on it. I'll be gone, and might never return to hike on the Peaks, so it really won't affect me.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by BobP »

According to Arizona Department of Environmental Quality regulations, treated sewer water can be graded A+ even when it contains fecal matter in three out of every 10 samples.... :yuck: :yuck: :yuck:

I like to ski....maybe I'll go to Sunrise ;)
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by azbackpackr »

1. The White Mtn. Apache's mountain was never sacred until someone thought up the idea that them having sacred mtns. just like the Navajos do would be a legal advantage to them.

2. Sunrise Ski Resort on the White Mtn. Apache rez makes snow every year, and stays open longer than Snowbowl as a result. Not sure what the water source is, although I doubt it is reclaimed.

Here is something from the Flagstaff Daily Sun I found which gives another perspective on the tribes: their hypocrisy.

"As we sit in Flagstaff, we observe the Hualapai tribe construct a tourist 'Skybridge' over the Grand Canyon with no public input, the Navajo tribe building a casino 30 miles east of Flagstaff for tribal 'economic development,' the Hopi tribe win an award for a new water treatment facility that produces A+ reclaimed water, and the Apache Sunrise Ski Area make snow to ensure their business," Snowbowl Owner Eric Borowsky and General Manager J.R. Murray wrote to Deputy Agriculture Secretary Kathleen Merrigan last summer. "It appears that tribes are able to do what is necessary for their prosperity, yet these same tribes are attempting to force us out of business."
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Jim »

I always had a problem with that hypocrisy issue, but it's the wasting of water with which I have the real issue. I would actually rather they dig a well to tap fresh water to make snow, and also supply people that they impact through aquifer draw downs with water. We could write the permit for the well to a certain depth that can guarantee 15 years of water. If it dries out, then no more water. No real reason for 15 years, just that it is less time than we are supposed to have for adequate water supply before Flag's needs aren't met. As I write the above, I think of two things. First, water in the west has pretty much always been wasted, and I am thinking to myself, "why is it such a big deal to me that Flagstaff not waste water when it is going to "run out", when so many other places waste water, places like Las Vegas, Phoenix and Los Angeles". Second, we already inject a good percentage of our treated water into the aquifer, so contamination probably isn't that severe, or so I hope. Still, I filter my tap water.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by hippiepunkpirate »

Jim_H wrote: I'll be gone, and might never return to hike on the Peaks
Yeah right Jim. If you move to say Tucson, you'll be itching for some alpine tundra by mid-summer and you'll come up for a hike. If you end up somewhere closer to another source of alpine tundra, maybe you won't be back anytime soon, but I'm willing to bet you'll want to climb Humphrey again for old times sake at some point.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Jim »

I've thought of that, and I think if I am still in Tucson by summer (I'll probably be jobless if I still am) and I am faced with the drive to get to Flagstaff, I just might opt for Colorado or New Mexico, or possibly the White Mountains. I think I'll want to see something new or at least different. Because of the Holiday, I am not moving out of Flagstaff until the end of January (so I'll be paying way, way too much for my place) and as such I am planning on doing Humphrey a lot between now and then to make sure I get my fill. I think I can get to 70 times on Humphrey since I'm at 65 right now. 75 may be pushing it. I'm just starting to wonder about snow. With this warm up and the next storm forecast to be a dud, I think I may be doing more trail stuff than off trail. Since I want to be off Elden as the trail is a mess these days, I'm thinking Humphrey tomorrow. Want to go?
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Alston_Neal »

azbackpackr wrote: Here is something from the Flagstaff Daily Sun I found which gives another perspective on the tribes: their hypocrisy.

"As we sit in Flagstaff, we observe the Hualapai tribe construct a tourist 'Skybridge' over the Grand Canyon with no public input, the Navajo tribe building a casino 30 miles east of Flagstaff for tribal 'economic development,' the Hopi tribe win an award for a new water treatment facility that produces A+ reclaimed water, and the Apache Sunrise Ski Area make snow to ensure their business," Snowbowl Owner Eric Borowsky and General Manager J.R. Murray wrote to Deputy Agriculture Secretary Kathleen Merrigan last summer. "It appears that tribes are able to do what is necessary for their prosperity, yet these same tribes are attempting to force us out of business."
I can fully agree with tribal hypocrisy. The Navajos have grabbed the Peaks as theirs (4 sacred Mtns.) since it will encircle the Hopi. The Hopi Kachinas live there when they are not here amongst us. So to the Hopi the Peaks really are sacred ground deeper than most of us can understand. As far the tribes (Navajo and Hopi) coming together and buy it, I think most of the Hopi would rather eat glass than form any partnership with the people who tried really hard to wipe them off the face of the earth.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by PaleoRob »

Alston Neal wrote:I think most of the Hopi would rather eat glass than form any partnership with the people who tried really hard to wipe them off the face of the earth.
It doesn't matter what the people of Hopi think, it is what the "tribal council", the legal representation of the tribe to the outside world, wants. And obviously they have entered into a partnership with the Navajo - they were both parties in this lawsuit.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Jim »

Hopi, Navajo, Hualapia, Apache, it's more than just Navajo and Hopi.
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Re: Snowbowl Snowmaking

Post by Alston_Neal »

Point taken gents, I stand corrected.... :wrt:
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