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Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 08 2019 8:27 pm
by chumley
Burning near Woodbury Trailhead. It has grown to 500 acres. I'll post official links as soon as they're up.
The smoke plume does not look good.
Inciweb
Updated 2019-07-16 123,875 Acres - 100% Contained
[ Woodbury Fire Perimeter :: map ]
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 18 2019 3:05 pm
by chumley
@hondah35
I am copying the text of a post on a facebook page from a man named Cliff Pearlberg. I don't know him personally, though I've messaged with him a few times.
He is a retired wildland firefighter here in Arizona who has worked many such fires, so the information he posted seems to come from a place of knowledge and experience.
Many of you are asking why more aircraft are not being used in more areas on the Woodbury Fire.
In re-reading this I must add that the following is not intended to be specific to the Woodbury Fire. I am not on or near the fire and am not privy to their plans and strategies aside from what has been printed publicly. The following is general information based on my experience and training about the use of air resources on any fire. Since no two situations are the same specifics will vary from incident to incident.
Please allow me to explain. The material the air tankers drop on the fires is called retardant. Normally (except under the right conditions in almost pure grass) it is not effective nor is it expected to extinguish the fire. It it were, they would be called extinguishing agents not retardant.
Retardant is normally NOT dropped on the fire (it would dissipate in steam) but in front of the fire, coating the unburned vegetation. The effect of this is to slow the fire's progress so crews can then effectively fight the fire by removing vegetation (fuel) and/or with engines, wetting vegetation thus cooling and possibly depriving of oxygen long enough so combustion cannot be sustained. These are the three legs of the fire triangle - heat, fuel, oxygen. Remove one (often times easier said than done) and the fire goes out.
Helicopters on the other hand are used to work on specific hotspots, to cool areas close to where crews are working, and the largest can also function as air tankers at times.
Water is often ineffective because by itself it does not stick to vegetation well and it evaporates rather quickly.
So, in this terrain where we can obviously not get engines and where it is too dangerous for crews whether due to the ruggedness of the terrain or the expected fire behavior, aircraft would be largely ineffective. A very valid consideration IMO, considering one of the largest airtankers (DC-10) costs in the neighborhood of $57,000 to drop a load of 11,600 gallons of retardant.
Hope this helps.
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 18 2019 3:56 pm
by Tough_Boots
@chumley
Useful info from Facebook? I'm shocked.
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 18 2019 3:57 pm
by LindaAnn
I’m sure this will make a few people happy...
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 18 2019 4:14 pm
by AK
@LindaAnn
Thats awesome news! I thought that they were going to let it burn.
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 18 2019 4:33 pm
by markthurman53
@LindaAnn
Is this the Medusa Tree. I hope it survived, this one has seen a lot over the years.
[ image ]
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 18 2019 4:37 pm
by markthurman53
@markthurman53
I'm sure Elisha Reavis himself passes by this tree and it was probably large then
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 18 2019 4:54 pm
by LindaAnn
@markthurman53 Don’t take my word for it, but I believe so. If so, it’s the tree right smack in the center of the top picture in the image I posted.
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 18 2019 5:02 pm
by ALMAL
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 18 2019 5:04 pm
by ALMAL
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 18 2019 6:51 pm
by big_load
We've been discussing that tree elsewhere. It obviously survived at least one significant fire before, but I wasn't optimistic about its chances.
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 18 2019 7:54 pm
by hikeaz
The Fireline 'Trail'
[ Fireline Trail #118 ] was a bulldozer 'cut' from a fire fighting effort in 1966 (Iron Fire). The Iron Mountain Burn in 1966 destroyed most of the tall timber south of the Reavis Ranch toward Reavis Gap. I think they lost about
2,000 acres of Ponderosa pine. This loss was a majority of the Ponderosa pines in the area. For those who might be waiting for a 'rebirth' of the Ponderosa forest, keep up your health insurance as Ponderosa's grow about 12" (1') per year; oh, and that is AFTER the tree gets established). See any 50' Ponderosa's south of Reavis? Me neither.
How far have we progressed in 50+ years...?
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 19 2019 6:06 am
by JosephElfelt
Thanks for posting. I am the guy that produces that wildland fire map.
For anyone that wants to get the most out of the map, there is a
"Map tips" link in the upper left corner. Among other things, that info explains important limitations of the satellite hotspot data.
The red-and-black perimeter line is determined by analysts that review the overnight infrared data. Sometimes it will take a day or so before this latest perimeter data shows up on the Inciweb interactive map.
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 19 2019 6:07 am
by AZLumberjack
Thanks to "FlightRadar24" I was able to track this aircraft (N985AB) flying over the Superstition Mountain Wilderness Area. The complimentary version of this app will only allow thirty minutes then it times out and shuts down. I restarted the app several times following the aircraft as it circled around the Reavis Ranch area, the Tortilla Flat area and what appears to be the Whiskey Spring area with side trips to Haunted Canyon, Rogers Canyon and Roosevelt Lake.
The flight took off from and landed at Mesa's Falcon Field, landing just past noon (06-18-19). Very interesting, couldn't be the local news cause they have access to helicopters. The fire incident crews had choppers also and I was tracking them too. It’s a slurry bomber registered to Safford Aviation in Coolidge. They take smaller planes like the C90A and convert them into retardant droppers (slurry bombers). Judging by his length and pattern of flight I’d say he was in observation and assessment mode. I also heard that they are pulling back the ground support because of the terrain and they won’t drop slurry without ground crews present.
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 19 2019 6:09 am
by AZLumberjack
@JosephElfelt
Thanks Joseph, your map has been very helpful at determining where the major portions of the fire are. Keep up the good work.
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 19 2019 6:31 am
by AZLumberjack
Attached is a photo of a Pyrocumulus cloud over the main fire area on 06-17-19. This type of cloud, although beautiful, is not what we want to see when talking about a wildfire.
[ youtube video ]
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 19 2019 5:38 pm
by pixelfrog
@JosephElfelt thank you for your efforts to keep everyone informed!
Question for you, what constitutes a “Complex Point” in the fire? Is it rough terrain?
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 19 2019 5:49 pm
by JosephElfelt
pixelfrog wrote:Question for you, what constitutes a “Complex Point” in the fire? Is it rough terrain?
Good question - but I don't know the answer.
Did you see something on my map about "Complex Point"?
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 19 2019 5:59 pm
by pixelfrog
@JosephElfelt Yes in the legend the red triangles are listed as complex points.
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 19 2019 6:00 pm
by Sredfield
@ALMAL
I was there one Thanksgiving and the ground looked like that. Went back on New Years and there wasn't an apple to be seen. Some fat deer and bears probably tho.
Re: Woodbury Fire - Superstition Wilderness
Posted: Jun 19 2019 6:15 pm
by JosephElfelt
pixelfrog wrote:Yes in the legend the red triangles are listed as complex points.
Well, this is strange.
I searched the "Legend" page and "Map tips" page and do not see the word "complex".
Where are you seeing the reference to "complex points".
What do I need to do to see what you are seeing?