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Is a Tonto Pass required for parking at the Cave Creek Trailhead?

I parked there recently when I did the Seven Springs Inner Loop. I did not see a sign indicating that a pass was required. However, it may just be that I wasn't especially observant that day.

I'm planning another hike from that trailhead and have just noticed that the permit section says "FS" and in the Directions, there is a note, "2012-03-07 Nahimana222 writes: From the signs I saw at the trailhead, you need a Tonto Pass to park."

However, the Cave Creek Trailhead page hosted at the USDA says "No Fees."

So... I'm guessing that Nahimana222's note from 2012 is out of date?

@KBKB
Well The last time I was there I never noticed any signs requiring a pass.
I will be hiking up there next month and will keep an eye out for a sign.

The Tonto National Forest website lists Cave Creek Trailhead as a picnic area subject to the Tonto Pass requirement.

I’ve seen some arguments saying that hikers who simply park and do not utilize any of the amenities (trash cans, bathrooms, etc.) are not subject to the pass requirement. But I wouldn’t recommend it.

Looking back through my photos, I see that I took one of both of the signs at the trailhead.

So, if it were a fee area, I think it'd be posted prominently on the board to the left...
The notice at the upper right is about caring for your dog. Even fully zoomed in on the original, I can't make out the text on the notice at the lower left. The other ones are obvious at the posted resolution.

chumley wrote: ↑Dec 24 2017 10:35 am The Tonto National Forest website lists Cave Creek Trailhead as a picnic area subject to the Tonto Pass requirement.

I’ve seen some arguments saying that hikers who simply park and do not utilize any of the amenities (trash cans, bathrooms, etc.) are not subject to the pass requirement. But I wouldn’t recommend it.

Can you provide a link?

The link I provided in my original post does list picnicking as an activity, but also says "No Fees." in the "At a Glance" section.

@KBKB
I probably misunderstood what I read.

This link https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/ho ... ev3_018733
shows Tonto Pass sites and when you click on Picnicking Cave Creek Trailhead is listed. But if you click some of the other picnic sites the pages seem to say specifically when there is a pass required. Since Cave Creek does not have any pass information on that page I presume it’s fee free. Nonetheless I’d follow any posted signage on site.

chumley wrote: ↑Dec 24 2017 10:54 am @KBKB
I probably misunderstood what I read.

This link https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/ho ... ev3_018733
shows Tonto Pass sites and when you click on Picnicking Cave Creek Trailhead is listed. But if you click some of the other picnic sites the pages seem to say specifically when there is a pass required. Since Cave Creek does not have any pass information on that page I presume it’s fee free. Nonetheless I’d follow any posted signage on site.

Thanks for the clarification.

Will definitely follow any posted signage on site.

There is no fee for that trailhead. I've been there very recently-- no signs.

Tough_Boots wrote: ↑Dec 24 2017 12:37 pm There is no fee for that trailhead. I've been there very recently-- no signs.

Excellent. Thanks!

Also, even if one was required and you had the multi-agency pass (you know, the $80/year NP pass), that would work.

rcorfman wrote: ↑Dec 24 2017 4:20 pm Also, even if one was required and you had the multi-agency pass (you know, the $80/year NP pass), that would work.

I usually have one of those.

But I was under the impression that the Interagency Pass does not always suffice for all fee areas within the Tonto NF.

After following a few links, I came across this text: "America the Beautiful Interagency Passes are now only accepted at picnicking sites." So, for the Cave Creek Trailhead, it would work (if it were in fact designated as a fee area), since it's also a picnicking site.

@KBKB
Does that include food?

My Guess is that it was a Fee Site at one Time, but they discontinued it when they closed Seven Springs. I've never seen it Posted as a Fee Site, but I didn't start going there until after Seven Springs was Closed. They probably don't feel like it's worth sending someone up there to Enforce it just for the TH....

chumley wrote: ↑Dec 24 2017 10:35 am The Tonto National Forest website lists Cave Creek Trailhead as a picnic area subject to the Tonto Pass requirement.

I’ve seen some arguments saying that hikers who simply park and do not utilize any of the amenities (trash cans, bathrooms, etc.) are not subject to the pass requirement. But I wouldn’t recommend it.

32.2 - Standard Amenity Recreation Fees for Areas https://www.fs.fed.us/im/directives/fsh ... .13_30.doc

To qualify for charging a standard amenity recreation fee, an area must:
1. Provide significant opportunities for outdoor recreation;
2. Have substantial Federal investments, such as a high level of capital improvements or operating expenditures;
3. Allow for efficient fee collection; and
4. Contain or provide all of the following amenities:
a. Designated developed parking;
b. A permanent toilet facility;
c. A permanent trash receptacle;
d. An interpretive sign, exhibit, or kiosk;
e. A picnic table; and
f. Security services;.

Anyone who has been to Seven Springs after dark knows that 'security' is 'pack it in'.

outdoor_lover wrote: ↑Dec 26 2017 2:48 pm ... after Seven Springs was Closed.

Seven Springs is closed?

I thought I saw some folks at the campground when I hiked there last Friday.

@KBKB
It's been closed for at least 4 Years... From what everyone has been led to believe, it's Permanent. But the Facilities are still there and I'm sure people still do it....

The CCC campground on the left as you arrive closed after the 2005 cave creek complex fire. The campground further upstream, just before the second crossing and the official trailhead, is open.

A quick look at the FS website seems pretty clear. No fee for picnic/hike - $10 per night fee for camping (which must be paid at Cave Creek Ranger Station - yeah, right!).

hikeaz wrote:f. Security services;.

Anyone who has been to Seven Springs after dark knows that 'security' is 'pack it in'.

Problem is that same document defines security services only as occurring "frequently or routinely" ... that's open to alot of interpretation. Once a week could be considered routine.

outdoor_lover wrote:It's been closed for at least 4 Years.

Just before it closed my wife and I had parked there and after our hike we were having refreshments. There was nobody in the picnic area except us, but that changed as a young man approached us wanting to know if we had an extra soda. I gave him one while admiring his stylish ankle bracelet, probably courtesy of Arizona Department of Corrections.