HikeArizona.COM

Sad there will be more Saguaros in Tucson burned/killed.
This absolutely should not be at lower elevations but non natives grasses / cattle turned much of the catalina foothills into a prairie.
4th of july A Mountain fiasco and Mercer fire were two relatively recent examples around here.
Pontatoc seems to have burned completely and that has so many Saguaro sitting in grass fields and Ventana has large buffelgrass patches - I avoid Pontatoc because its so chock full of weeds its disgusting and the trail up to maiden pools in Ventana is similarly disgusting.
As if climate change wasn't enough stress on the Saguaro.
The fire retardants being used to save all the foothills mansions promote the re-growth of mainly non native grasses and they are already coming back after a fire very well.
So much destruction caused by the introduction of cattle to the desert and accelerating climate change too - I quit eating meat years ago and volunteer for invasive species monitoring and removal efforts while maintaining a career and running goals no problem - people in Phoenix don't let this happen to your Saguaros.

Are we a native species? Am I invasive?
The only constant is change.

chumley wrote:Am I invasive?

Yes!
In all fairness, one of the few I could say so publicly without a diatribe reply of I'm quitting HAZ or life.

Millions living in a condensed area of the desert pointing the finger at grass seems odd to me.

joebartels wrote:Yes!
In all fairness, one of the few I could say so publicly without a diatribe reply of I'm quitting HAZ or life.

Invasive is probably one of the nicer adjectives that could be used!
And I wouldn't quit life hearing the other ones either!

joebartels wrote: ↑Jun 12 2020 11:12 am Millions living in a condensed area of the desert pointing the finger at grass seems odd to me.

Why?

@air
Eating meat today has nothing to do with grazing practices of 100+ years ago. Don't eat it, it is your choice. However, the false dichotomy presented these days by the conventional politics of Left vs Right, ecological minded or environmentally minded vs some other view point, or that meat is the cause for whatever it is currently being scapegoated, is just another reason why the left loses people who are sane as our tribal system of politics evolves. I'm not saying that you are the cause of this, but eating meat is not the reason for global warming or "climate change". I know that the propaganda machine surrounding the well funded vegan movement is swaying the youth and others to believe this, but sorry, nope. The darling of weirdo-wood, James Cameron and his garbage film Game Changers is another prime example. Won't watch it, don't care, but does the film mention that Cameron and his wife invested heavily in a $140,000,000. vegan pea protein company? My guess is no.

Invasives are a problem, and they are currently and will continue to change ecosystems. Probably, the Catalina Foothills and especially places like the Pusch Ridge area will no longer be dense Saguaro forests in 25 years, or less. Same for other wet desert areas that can support these grasses. I encourage their eradication, but being realistic this will not happen. If anything, land managers should triage areas such as the Pusch out, and concentrate on the Saguaro East, and adjacent places to managed and keep the Saguaro intact as long as possible.

Many areas of Phoenix are less likely to support the grasses since it is drier here. Phoenix Parks, at least. They are here, but not like in the Pusch. South Mountain has areas that seem almost identical to the lower south face of the Pusch, but without the grasses. A fair number of good sized cactus, too.

Jim_H wrote: joebartels wrote: ↑
Millions living in a condensed area of the desert pointing the finger at grass seems odd to me.

Why?

I assume your question is sarcasm, but I'll throw a few thoughts out there for those who missed that.

The grass didn't get there without the people. Along with all kinds of other plants and animals that we as a population have affected.

Not to mention water use: groundwater / water table in addition to dams. Developing the desert into cities causing an urban heat island effect that impacts temperature in immediately adjacent ranges such as the Catalinas. Air pollution from automobiles and industrial use plus agriculture which disturbs the soil and allows airborne particulates from wind.

Add any number of other things that you've probably "ranted" about before.

@chumley
No, I was not being sarcastic. I didn't understand why Joe said that. Putting it from your perspective, there is some validity, but the problem of invasive grasses in a place like the Pusch Ridge and foothills of the Catalinas is one specific thing, and given Air's post, it is something that can be managed if done early enough or appropriately. Yes, aside from perhaps groundwater withdrawals, those things do affect the Saguaro, but more than likely will not carry a fire which will directly kill them, not on the elevated rocky Pusch, at least.

To me, it seemed like he was suggesting that even though there is a problem, we should just not even think about it, or consider it, because we're here, or something like that.

I enjoy a good rant, as people call it here, or discussion as it is know outside this website. I too, am not going anywhere anytime soon, invasive or not. However, I take issue with either of us being invasive, as neither of us have reproduced, and I think invasives reproduce or spread. We just infest places. We are an infestive ( is that a word?) pest.

Jim_H wrote: I take issue with either of us being invasive, as neither of us have reproduced

I feel like the world owes us each a huge debt of gratitude for this! (I for one, accept cash gifts).

Let's see how many invasive species can we name in AZ that are wild.
1. Horses
2. donkeys
3. Peach-faced lovebirds
4. Tumbleweed (Russian thistle)
5. Pigeons
6. European starlings
7. Mediterranean geckos
8. Occelated skink
9. Brown widow
10. German cockroach
11. Water snakes (Yuma)
12. Spurred tortoise
13. Elk (debatable because the subspecies was introduced to replace the native elk that was extirpated)
14. Brahminy blinsnake
15. Bullfrog
16. Red-eared slider
17. Softshell turtle
18. Hogs (maybe)
19. Snapping turtle
20. Salt cedar

*Note: if an animal (like Homo sapiens and the red-crowned parrots in San Diego) traveled to an area on its own to expand its range, then it's not invasive.

@gummo
How'd the tumbleweed and tamarisk make it into your list of animals?

@Jim_H
...or here's an idea, why don't we stop messing with it. I mean, what got us to this point to begin with and how can the same ideology get us out of it? We seem to get these grand notions that we can solve the earths complex issues, just to turn around and find that "Oh, that just made things worse". This isn't the case just sometimes. but far too often. You won't save the world by pulling up grass. You know what you get when you start pulling up grass? Yeah, the first 3 miles of Finger Rock with it's dangerously eroding slopes, brought to you by the two dozen Roundup-Rangers who frequent the canyon spraying or pulling anything that they deem undesirable ( not to mention that mesquite behind it). People need to do their part going forward and cut their losses thinking they can cure the past. People need to realize that they aren't so powerful as to push nature aside and "fix it". It's really quite arrogant.

Actually Jim, that wasn't directed straight at you, but I think you and I have discussed this grass issue before.

@gummo
Hate to complicate things, but what about relocating sheep ?

@Mountain_Rat
I think relocating sheep is an example of the arrogant humans fixing nature issue in your previous post?

@chumley
I was just trying to get 20 before going to work.

Jim_H wrote:as neither of us have reproduced

Are we to take your word on that?

@CannondaleKid
I always say "that I know of" or "that I acknowledge".
Does that work?

@CannondaleKid
How can it be proven?

Jim_H wrote:How can it be proven?

Good luck... it's pretty tall order to prove a negative.