Deer Creek/Thunder River--Advice and Info.

[ddgrunning]

All right, all of you experienced, backcountry GC trekkers, I need some help. I have hiked the GC corridor trails several times, but am now venturing into the backcountry ...

I have oohed and aahed over the triplogs for the Bill Hall-Deer Creek-Thunder River hikes that several of you have been on, so I put in for a permit for this October. I requested a permit for two nights, with the plan of hiking from Bill Hall TH to (1) Deer Creek (AX7) on day 1; then looping down along the River and up to (2) Upper Tapeats (AW7) on day 2; then hiking out on day 3. Something along the lines of John9L's track: http://hikearizona.com/map.php?GPS=27449

Unfortunately, Deer Creek (AX7) was full for my first, second, and all optional dates listed. The permit I got, instead, has me staying at Upper Tapeats on night 1 and then at Surprise Valley (AM9) on night 2.

In light of the permit received, I need to revise my trip plans, and would appreciate some guidance/suggestions/advice on using this permit to get the most out of the hike. Other than what I can find here on HAZ, there seems to be surprisingly little, detailed information available online, about planning a trip in this area.

Has anyone camped at Surprise Valley (AM9)?
Since it's dispersed camping, is anywhere in the "valley" fair game, or is there a more restricted area? (I have yet to find any resource online that provides any detail about this camping area.) Any suggestions for the best place to set up camp for the night in this area?

Is a loop hike along the lines of my original itinerary still possible (perhaps in reverse)? I would definitely like to hit: Deer Spring, The Patio, Deer Creek Falls, Tapeats Creek and Thunder River, if possible. Perhaps the cave as well.

Also, I'd appreciate any advice on books or other written materials (or online materials) that would have more detailed information about this area, for us in trip planning.

Any other "must do" (or avoid); "must see"; or other tips/advice on backpacking in this area are also welcome and appreciated.

Thanks in advance (and sorry for the long string ....)

[mazatzal]

Has anyone camped at Surprise Valley (AM9)?

AM9 includes the route along the river. Yes, we camped on the beach just below 135 mile rapids.
I think you could reverse your loop. Day 2 would be short and day 3 would be long. I guess the other choice would be to camp in Surprise Valley - you could leave a water cache at the trail junction on day 1.

[chumley]

I personally think that making any kind of loop here in just two nights is a bad idea. It doesn't leave you nearly the time you will want to explore or enjoy the area.

Surprise valley is one of the most scenic places to camp in the entire canyon. While there are no designated campsites--- there are some spots that are clearly camped at regularly--- and that's where you want to be. But it's dry and you will have to haul water up from thunder river or deer spring when you are there.

[John9L]

While the permit they issued you is not ideal it will work. Your three day trip will be a lot but it's very doable. Deer Creek and Thunder River are truly spectacular!

You can make the loop along the Colorado in reverse (clockwise). You'll have to do the tricky down climb along the river but it will be fine. Keep in mind there is a lower and upper trail along the Colorado River. I think my route was the upper. There's an established trail the whole way and it's easy to follow.

I haven't camped in Surprise Valley. From what I remember it's a fairly desolate area. You can camp anywhere you want. On your hike in pay attention for potential sites. On your second day I would recommend spending all day along the Colorado River and the Deer Creek patio. When you start the hike up to Surprise Valley stop at Deer Spring to load up on water. Try to to time it so you get to your Surprise Camp late in the day.

For books, I like the Hiking Grand Canyon National Park by Ron Adkison. There is some good info on Tapeats and Deer Creek.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0762760605?tag=hikearizona

[Al_HikesAZ]

But it's dry and you will have to haul water up from thunder river or deer spring when you are there.

You should also bring water in with you and cache it on the way down. I wish we had made more and smaller caches. We made one big cache just at the drop down through the redwall. I wish we had left half the cache there and the other half closer to the Bill Hall Trail. You could also bring some water in with you to cache at Surprise Valley so you don't have to haul it up from Deer Creek on your second day. Just hide all your caches well from the curious ravens.

I have heard that you should get down to Lower Tapeats and go along the river. Don't try to avoid the downclimb by heading west without going down to Lower Tapeats. I have no experience with that upper route. We saw that trail but I have heard that that route is a pumpkin. Besides, you want to be down at the river to see Deer Creek from the river. One of the spectacular sights in the canyon.

Go with the easy route on Tapeats if it is available. You will cross the creek a few times. The east side is easier if the creek allows you to cross. The West side has fewer crossings but takes you up higher and is harder. Ultimately you will end up on the west side for the final approach to Lower Tapeats. I can't imagine Tapeats running too heavy in October, but if it is, know proper creek crossing protocols. (Three point stabilization with your hiking poles. Unbuckle your pack. Loose your pack and do not loose your life.)

[johnlp]

Two nights hiking clockwise is very doable, but lots of work. Day two will be a long one. The pay offs will make it worth it. Starting the hike out from Surprise Valley will be an advantage. Less gain the last day. Awesome place. Enjoy!

[hikeaz]

Add (at least) a night. With all you'd like to see/do plus the semi-arduous hiking, you will be glad you did.

[ddgrunning]

Thanks, all. I was able to secure a second night in Surprise Valley, for three total (w/ first night at Upper Tapeats). Ranger Bean suggested that the "best" camping spots in Surprise Valley (the whole area looks rather desolate) are closer to Thunder River than Deer Creek, which is unfortunate, as I'd like something more on the western edge of the valley to make the loop hike more viable. The ranger suggested skipping the Colorado River traverse b/t Tapeats and Deer Creek Falls, and just doing the Deer Creek drainage as an out-and-back day hike from Surprise Valley. How much would I be "missing out" if I skipped the hike down lower Tapeats and the Colorado river traverse?

[hikeaz]

If it is warm the Tapeats-Deer river traverse is no bargain, although lower Tapeats is pretty (you can also hike the creekbed upstream to the narrows once at the bottom of the trail). River trips may offer a ride from Tapeats to Deer (rarely commercial trips - private trips are much more hiker-friendly).
Or.... Maybe a short scoot over to Stone may be in order - pretty place with waterfalls and a granary & easy to access!
Track on attached map is approximate - route is obvious. Great views on the way to Stone from Tapeats (and back, too)! Some river trips stop @ Stone - so the same ride may be possible.

[ddgrunning]

AM9 includes the route along the river. Yes, we camped on the beach just below 135 mile rapids.

With the extra night, I think we will do night 2 on the river, per mazatzal's suggestion. I was surprised how hard it is to figure out the boundaries of the "use areas." Per the Backcountry Office, NPS does not have anything like that available on line (seems pretty dumb). The ranger suggested I purchase the National Geographic map (#263 Grand Canyon West Trail Map), which I did and which delineates the use area boundaries. It confirms that the AM9 "Surprise Valley" use area extends all the way down to the river. So, this should make a great loop after all.

[ddgrunning]

My trip on the Deer Creek/Thunder River loop is coming up in the next couple of weeks, and I'm getting to the nitty-gritty trip planning. One key question is: How to get to the Bill Hall TH from Phoenix? Honestly, at the moment, that's my biggest concern.

The directions on the HAZ description start from just east of Fredonia, but I've been unable to make the written description line up very well with any map I've consulted. Also, unless you are travelling from the north, those directions don't seem to make much sense, and none of the internet route mapping options (MapDex, etc.) plots a route that way. Rather, they all head south from Jacobs Lake towards the North Rim. After that, however, its a free-for-all. And the Ron Adkison book suggests a different route than any the internet mapping programs come up with.

Looking for some advice (or better--a GPS track or map) from some HAZers who've been there.

[azbackpackr]

Go with Adkison AND a current Kaibab National Forest Map (North Kaibab Ranger District.)
http://www.amazon.com/Kaibab-National-F ... ikearizona

[chumley]

This is how we did it last year. Very good forest roads, large sections are 45-50mph. I still think you need high-clearance as it does deteriorate in some spots and can probably be a mess if it gets wet. (A lot of the road is gravel ... but some of it drops to rutted dirt, especially nearest to the TH).

I think it took us just over an hour from Jacob Lake.

http://hikearizona.com/map.php?MY=15314&M=6

[chumley]

I was surprised how hard it is to figure out the boundaries of the "use areas."

Just for future visitors, there is an excellent map on HAZ which shows the Grand Canyon Use Areas.
http://hikearizona.com/map.php?QX=4101

[Dave1]

@ddgrunning
This would be my choice:

http://hikearizona.com/map.php?MY=15315&M=6

[azbackpackr]

Yes, yes, and you can car camp the night before the hike at Crazy Jug Point.

[chumley]

The route Dave posted also works well. It's 12 miles less dirt road driving than the route we drove, but the exchange is 25 miles of additional paved road driving. Since so much of the dirt portion is on long, straight, graded gravel, I found it to be quicker to drive more miles on dirt but fewer miles overall.

The drive on Hwy 67 is beautiful if you haven't done it before though.

Like Azbackpackr said, Crazy Jug is a fantastic camp site. I wouldn't count on finding it unoccupied however.

[Al_HikesAZ]

I've driven Chumley's route because the gate on Highway 67 at Jacob Lake was closed. I agree with his assessment but he might be a little optimistic on the time from Jacob Lake. Maybe an hour and a half. We were driving by the DeLorme atlas not GPS which is why it might have taken us little longer or maybe I just drive slower. This route is basically a short cut from Jacob Lake over to the Fredonia Route that is described in the Hike Directions.

Dave1's route looks better if 67 is open. This is the alternate access route described in the Hike Directions. This was the route we wanted to take, but 67 was closed just south of Jacob Lake.

At this time of year I would expect both routes to be ok. In the spring I would be worried about downed trees from the winter.

[ddgrunning]

Interesting. After I posted the request above, but before seeing your responses, I was able to get ahold of the backcountry office and they recommended something of a combination of the Chumley and Dave1 routes:

Turn off 67 at FS22 (or 422, depending on which map you look at), per Dave1's route, but then they suggest continuing NW on 22 all the way to the intersection with FS425, and then more or less "backtracking" down 425, per Chumley's route.

Dave1's route sure is a lot more direct from the point it leaves 67. I wonder why NPS suggests such a circuitous route....

(I'll be driving a Suburban, so I'm okay on high clearance, but I don't have 4W drive).

[nonot]

I've driven Chumley's route because the gate on Highway 67 at Jacob Lake was closed. I agree with his assessment but he might be a little optimistic on the time from Jacob Lake. Maybe an hour and a half.

Chumley's times probably involve driving at Chumley speed

For most of us, count on 25-50% longer