The Galiuros are burning

RedRoxx44 · Post by **RedRoxx44** » Jun 19 2014 5:47 pm

Oak fire, around China Peak, at about 800+ acres. I was told a long time ago by a guy who used to manage the air tankers for the western US that the management plan was to let it burn. This was a lightning start. Probably will not suppress it unless it gets into some rancher land in the foothills. Sad, but fire is a part of the ecosystem so will wait to see what this brings, something positive I hope.

RedRoxx44 · Post by **RedRoxx44** » Jun 30 2014 2:07 pm

A recent funding and litigation link-- some sort of american forest council appears Oregon centered. Again some good basic info if you ignore the politics.

http://www.amforest.org/images/pdfs/AFR ... -25-14.pdf

and this one of the politics surrounding forest fires gave me a headache, but made some good points

http://www.forestfire.nau.edu/pdf_files ... _DATA!.pdf

dude · Post by **dude** » Jun 30 2014 5:34 pm

Jim_H wrote:
dude wrote:"
The only rational (though illegitimate) argument for propagating a Sky Island “Wildfire” during the hottest and driest month of the year is if your getting paid for it.
Unless you need specific conditions to have a fire move through an area and burn a lot of brush that otherwise will not burn or carry fire in periods that are not as conducive. You can burn cured fine fuels like grass almost year round. You can not get a fire to move very well in brushy fuels like mountain mahogany, shrub oaks, cliff rose, with a minimal fine fuel matrix and open areas of bare ground between. Grasslands in the SW have been heavily replaced by shrub lands. In some areas they are gone for good, replaced by mesquite and desert scrub.

Maybe this fire is not the spearhead of a campaign by greedy 1039 FS seasonals, hell bent on raking in the lucrative federal fat, but is instead a calculated decision to manage a forest that is largely unmanaged, heavily exploited, very degraded ecologically, and would benefit greatly from increased fire reintroduction? Everyone cries when a Aspen or a Florida, or a Horseshoe 1 and 2 happen, but those were all inevitable, and will happen again, and again. The only good thing, would be to have them more frequently. Mount Lemmon needs another fire, as do the Santa Ritas. It needs to come sooner, not later, but that will not happen.

Since it was stated elsewhere that I make fun of people for being ignorant, I shall say for the record, that at no point did I make fun of any members, while posting in this thread.
Also from Jim_H
"“most Arizona wilderness areas are a joke, and should not be managed as Wildernesses. They are too small and degraded to be true wilderness, and need management to function properly.”

In lieu of overturning wilderness laws, decommissioning the majority of the southern AZ Public lands + wildernesses and scraping them off. Wouldn't there be less global warming and just a whole lot easier for everyone even make you more comfortable if you were to live to in a part of the world not cluttered by “joke” Forests? The Gobi or Antarctic may give you that clean slate, open feel you advocate. All opposed; link is proof of virtual carpet bombing fire on the Galiuros.
http://hikearizona.com/photo=426755

In the West lightning strikes have burned under snow for even miles. Having not experienced the burning performance issues the eastern speaking FS statesman suffers from. It's baffling that anyone claims it requires the hottest driest month in AZ to burn dead vegetation when even the living ones will. It's like claiming gasoline is needed to get lighter fluid to burn. As the old growth sticks (X canopy) and walls of red flames seen for weeks in the Galiuro's attest while you and the USFS call it proper management and the incineration balls fall everyday to propagate it!

The gist of your posts is if you don't burn the “joke” wildernesses at their peak dryness and temperature they may go out.(they may even regenerate or survive) Ample incendiary drops for moon scape and repeat later to remove the stubble (years of flooding and erosion, then a brush carpet). Give the FS money, shut up and get out of the way, we know what were doing! (not withstanding past performance)

All reading this need only look to who post trips and pics of these mountains to know your descriptions can't really be true, seeing just a few images may give pause to all you post. The Oak Fire is another systematic destruction of a public treasure and it's wildlife for money.

All the examples of recent atrocity fires show fallacies, abuses, diversions, manipulations, and overall lack of conscience of the USFS/USDA. Literally destroying our lands for profit while holding the remaining hostage for another channel of open ended funding that they may be able to “save” some small part of Our lands. (not the “joke” Wildernesses)

Just as the referred to past wildfire extortion's this too is promoted by the USFS/USDA to get even more of Our future moneys too. They Rain fire on the forests when it's most profitable, and most damaging as a “plan” later ask for more money or it may be worse next time. Yet still not prosecuted?

The Oak fire as many before, is a product of propagation by the USFS/USDA. Arguments for propagating “Wildfires” during the hottest and driest months of the year are contrived by those profiting from it. Condemn their LIES loudly, save our lands, the wildlife, and money too.

http://hikearizona.com/trip=104985

RedRoxx44 · Post by **RedRoxx44** » Jun 30 2014 6:14 pm

I remembered an interesting note regarding the Galiuros' water--- Craig Childs "The Secret Knowledge of Water" starting on page 144 covers some interesting territory from Muleshoe north regarding the Ice age 10K to 15K old fossil water in this range via radiocarbon dating.

RedRoxx44 · Post by **RedRoxx44** » Jul 01 2014 6:54 pm

The closure area now encompasses the area I hiked this weekend, and extends to the west. Come on monsoons----

I got a nice note from Craig Childs----"Thanks for the update, Letty, I hadn't known. I hope it's not a terribly hot or expansive burn, and that life returns swiftly. That is such a beautiful place, I was thinking about the summer fireflies not long ago. Best, Craig"

Thinking about going in from Jackson cabin this upcoming weekend vs going to New Mexico. Gonna be hot but hopefully will be stormy/rainy too.

SkyIslandHiker · Post by **SkyIslandHiker** » Jul 02 2014 5:18 pm

According to the most recent Inciweb update the FS is attempting to protect Power's Garden:

"The USFS is aware of the biological and cultural significance of Power’s Garden to the people of southern Arizona and has taken special actions to ensure the protection of these resources. Such actions include removing brush around the structures and enclosing the structures within fire resistant wraps. Burn outs conducted during nighttime hours were also implemented to improve buffer zones to the Power’s Garden area. In addition, a Type 1 heavy helicopter has been assigned, specifically, to aid in the protection of these resources."

dude · Post by **dude** » Jul 02 2014 5:39 pm

Considerations

USFS tells the public that “incineration balls ignite when they hit the ground”.

Standard FS helicopter hoppers hold 4000 incendiary ping-pong like balls. Just before dropping each is injected with antifreeze sparking a chemical reaction that caused them to burst into flames within 30 seconds.

Can't find data on the % of the incineration balls that hit trees and hang or run out of time (~30sec) igniting the tree, or for various species. But based on my experience and trials I submit: 5% or more of direct hits on mature ponderosa pines hang, fur and juniper trees higher, and Oaks and maples lowest. Since canopy fires generally run, the odds of a ponderosa or fir Canopy surviving a direct hit run are low when dry and hot. Therefore Incineration balls should not be used on ponderosa or fur trees given mortality rates. (Ponderosa pines grow no further east than Oklahoma.)

dude · Post by **dude** » Jul 02 2014 5:48 pm

Hot spot map: under 2 tenths of a mile due east of Powers garden 7/1/2014, 11:05 AM ( 2018-08-28 dead link removed )

Today Map says “Current Fire Perimeters: “The Oak fire has burnt approximately 12,819.62 acres as of June 30, 2014. This information is updated ~24 hours (USGS.gov, GeoMAC).”
Inciweb “Current as of 7/2/2014, 9:25:55 AM size 12,296 Acres”
In last 2 days 523.62 Acres were unburned ??
Inciweb 6/30/2014, 3:19:27 PM size “11,172 Acres”

Do times down to the hundredth of a second sell errors? Really..

“Over the next few days, crews have been assigned for initial attack if lightening occurs in the Galiuro Mountains with incoming thunderstorms.” “Fuels are very dry in the area and very receptive to ignition”

Are they threating they mite try to put out a fire in a forest they have dropped thousands of incinerator balls on since 6-17?? [ photo ]

“The fire will continue to show similar fire activity as the last few days, which will include backing down slopes and then some uphill runs. Some of the activity will be intense for short periods/runs. Fuels are very dry in the area and very receptive to ignition. Fire behavior increased slightly on June 29 and produced a column in Corral and Brush canyons as it aligned with slope and wind.”

So when we rain fire disregard huge erratic smoke. Random statement of something 3 days ago, a cover story for pics news posted?

“Weather Concerns: There will be a very slight chance of a thunderstorm at the fire site today with isolated thunderstorms afternoon and evening. Moisture will then increase significantly tomorrow into the upcoming weekend. The increased moisture will lead to higher relative humidity, as well as a good chance of afternoon and evening showers and thunderstorms tomorrow and Friday.”

“Concerns” that the forest will not burn as well?

Puzzled that most of the Arizonans on this site do not seem disturbed by yet another contrived “wildfire” when it's most damaging to our land. Media seems to be their weakness. Please Consider, posting evidence, tweeting, to news station, call some elected officials, write a letter to the editor, take a drive ask questions, video something. If we did this, within a day or two the fire would stop raining at least for awhile, perhaps even the season. We may have even save your treasured area somewhere else with out knowing it.

RedRoxx44 · Post by **RedRoxx44** » Jul 03 2014 4:37 am

@SkyIslandHiker
I wonder if the FS is getting a lot of input from certain families in Safford. The FS set up a public information kiosk there at Walmart a few hours during the week I think.

The log book at Powers Garden has several entries from a few years back; family members of one or two of the slain lawmen in the shootout horsepacked in there to see where their relatives died.
It was poignant reading some of those writings. Grandchildren, Nieces and nephews, came and commented on the rugged beauty and what it meant to them. I think there are still relatives of those families in Safford.

A cute picture on inciweb shows one of the Garden crew standing at the edge of a small burnout and if you look closely it looks like he is watching three small deer at the edge of the black.
Also photo page 10 ( as of this writing) shows the fully wrapped shootout cabin, they've cut back the uphill foliage, the trail is uphill pic right , out of sight. The overview pictures look pretty good, most of the burn up high near the ridge tops, want to see how the canyons faired.

SkyIslandHiker · Post by **SkyIslandHiker** » Jul 03 2014 5:35 am

RedRoxx44 wrote:@SkyIslandHiker
I wonder if the FS is getting a lot of input...

Last Friday I just happened to have finished up a hike on Mt.Lemmon when the FS was conducting their Oak Fire news media briefing at Aspen Vista. I stopped by and asked Heidi Schewel (Communications Staff Officer for the Coronado) specifically about Power's Garden and whether or not it was inside or outside of the planned burn area. She replied that she was familiar with Power's Garden but did not know the answer to my question, but would find out. I doubt if my question alone had any impact but every squeaky wheel helps, such as your recent visit to the FS office.

dude · Post by **dude** » Jul 03 2014 8:57 pm

The start point of the fire on
http://www.arcgis.com/apps/PublicInform ... 5f4db6caf5

Is Gray, legend says gray is Contained , map will not load a perimeter now for me.
Clicking on the start point the below message came up.
Contained June 18, 2014??

FireLocations: AZ-CNF-Oak
Name AZ-CNF-Oak
Date June 18, 2014
Fire Status Contained
Information More info

Map shows 11 hot spots south and east of powers garden, 1 is about a tenth of a mile due south of house. Minutes later only one hot spot of the prior 11 show?

dude · Post by **dude** » Jul 04 2014 12:30 pm

arcgis.com: By 9:30am today perimeter plot loads, still says "Contained". Looks like hot spots outside the perimeter have been turned off. Significant advances will clarify, like advancing into Paddy’s river would require a major effort on their part. A long lens and time.
Perimeter says:
The Oak fire has burnt approximately 13,752.84 acres as of July 2, 2014.
Icon at start point says Contained 6-18-2014.

inciweb: “Current as of 7/3/2014, 9:33:59 AM”
Current Situation: Size 13,137 Acres Percent of Perimeter Contained 5%
618.84 less acres than arcgis.com assessed July 2, 2014
burn rate over 1k each day now, expects arcgis.com to show over 16k when dated July 4th

Update: Hang Rate of incineration balls: Was told average overall hang rate is 3-4% of all balls dropped over wooded areas. Indicating that my estimate of a 5% rate for direct hits on mature ponderosa pines is conservative-low.
Inciweb now: Fuels Involved
“Mostly pinyon/oak with a high amount of manzainta understory at the higher elevations. Also in ponderosa pine, mainly in drainages. Grass and scattered pinyon-juniper at lower elevations.”
FYI Pinion pitch-sap commonly runs down and drips off the trees, remains viable for decades as an excellent fire starter. Can light with a match just after being dug from snow. These trees burn significantly better than even junipers, should have highest mortality in burn areas.
Though the few Giant fir may all be lost as a result of the USFS extensive propagation even within their habitat. Even if left standing and viable, exposure and drying of the ground due to lack of coverage is as real a threat as the fire, just a protracted genocide.

chumley · Post by **chumley** » Jul 04 2014 3:20 pm

Off-topic: how is Galiuros correctly pronounced? Silent L? "Guy-euros"?

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Jul 04 2014 8:13 pm

I always hear it as "gal-E-eros".

azbackpackr · Post by **azbackpackr** » Jul 04 2014 10:50 pm

I have heard it as Jim called it, "galley-arrows." In Spanish, it would be "gal e oo-ros." But I also heard a lot of locals, back when I lived in Tucson, shorten it to "galeros."

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Jul 05 2014 6:35 am

I think we should change the name to something easier to say.

RedRoxx44 · Post by **RedRoxx44** » Jul 06 2014 7:53 pm

More good info---
http://forest.moscowfsl.wsu.edu/smp/sol ... NT-280.php

and

http://www.nature.org/newsfeatures/pres ... -budge.xml

And yes Jim I do read inciweb, but I don't believe everything I read on the internet, even here ;)

dude · Post by **dude** » Jul 07 2014 2:36 pm

Re: The Galiuros are burning
Postby Jim_H » Jun 29 2014 09:30 pm

Jim_H wrote:
Letty, you are not currently rational enough to have a conversation on this subject or for this area. On that point, I agree with you.
The original above, and the update below:

I stand by that, and it is not an insult. In fact, if someone wanted to play the victim of insults, I could, based on your continued repeated attacks of name calling and liable by stating motivations based purely on money, when directed at forest managers. You were not rational, at all. Your posts calling people jerks, and telling me to see how I feel when my house burns down confirmed this. I posted telling you to calm down and stop being so emotional, with quoted texts from inciweb talking about the fire meeting objectives and burning in a mosaic pattern. You only responded to the emotional part by tell me to, "see how I feel when my house burns down". The range is not your home. You have strong attachments to it, but it is not yours personally. By virtue of public lands, it belongs to all US citizens. You have demonstrated and even stated that you do not have enough knowledge to have formed an educated opinion on forest management and fire management, and so other than simply having an opinion which you can enjoy, you should not be given an inordinately large sway over how this fire is managed, or how policies specific to the range, are enacted.

As far as your friend. He is a troll.

Last edited by Jim_H on Jul 06 2014 03:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

To clarify do you also do everything for money and or you’re a jerk that is offended by one or both correlating to a FS employee? Or are you admitting your a Forest manager as implied or involvement with the USFS to claim liable(injury) and so underline the ulterior motive argument.

That would explain maligning a mature and very obvious nature lover, for implying the obvious. USFS actions/timing/even language is for the money. Doing so in a misleading capacity is reason enough to dispel. But alleging the singular public does not have rights as such. Even taking the freedom of speech to disapprove of rampant misappropriation of funding of the public moneys for decades at their lands expense too should have equally serious repercussions.

Also edited several of his posts as much as 11 days old to undercut other posts before they were made in the order should never be allowed at all. That it was done exhibiting no regard for protocol, ethics, respect, feelings, rules, and even dispelling ones rights should exact much more than a slap. Removal of the damming posts would be like expunging it from record, actually helping the offender and his now claimed ulterior motive cause. Large red ruling across the offending posts, locked to him but not his targets seems more equitable.

Given the members prolificness and manor for so long one wonders of why it's been allowed. Or that even the weather is his and maybe on our dime too.

I oppose this post being a casualty of this as at the very least the parties that have been bullied not just this time deserve something to bare witness. Also as much proves the points of the member actually attack now for weeks and others for simply representing them.

Eventually I may if allowed post a group rebuttal to the lot. Though the citing inciweb as holy when even the excerpts cited testify it's not a wildfire at all but we are milking it and the “fat” calling it so. Even the propaganda pictures show a completely contrived fire. The we are talking rhetoric therefor you believe us displays lies, diversions, and lots of misappropriated $$$.

All this last weekends rains should finally end this fires propagation. Following posts should be more about the other funding wildfires bill beyond “suppression”, that can dwarf the reported “wildfire” costs. Also claiming personnel #s similar to peak "suppression" days after the in name only “wildfire” is done. Generally milking more than a week to two after the excuse is even gone!

I wish all to focus on the system and resources involved, opposed to the individual players. As the scape goating of employees do not effect policy at all. History shows the unethical oversight does not change with even the standard reassignment of even the offending forest head though actual firing without reward maybe a step.

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Jul 07 2014 8:41 pm

:bdh:

RedRoxx44 · Post by **RedRoxx44** » Jul 08 2014 5:45 pm

Hot off the press
( 2018-08-28 dead link removed )

This is to be included in the bill for money for the border crisis. As always---follow the money.

On a totally unrelated note to sabotage my own thread. Ran across this paper stating that the Galiuro, Mogollon and Animas corridors would make excellent Jaguar, wolf and grizzly bear habitat. That would make hiking there very interesting!
( 2018-08-28 dead link removed )

Inciweb not updated for 2 days so fire is showing only 25% contained but additional info makes it sound like a mop up operation.

Working on my FOIA request so perhaps will post anything interesting here in a few months from now as I get the info.

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Jul 08 2014 6:03 pm

NOTICE: THIS WILL BE THE FINAL NEWS RELEASE FROM ICS-3 TEAM

( 2018-08-28 dead link removed )

That is why they have not updated the incident page.

Also,

Due to rain, cooler temperatures, and high relative humidity, fire activity remains low. Crews in the Power’s Garden area will be pulling back, but cabins will remain wrapped with fire resistant material. Work areas will be combined and in the next few days resources will be downsized. Crews working on the southeast corner will continue to prep High Creek for a contingency line. Yesterday, no aerial water drops were conducted due to the amount of rain received. Crews will continue to be available for initial attack if lightning occurs in the region with forecasted thunderstorms.

In the coming days, the fire will continue to smolder and smoke may be seen. Crews will complete rehabilitation of containment lines while others will patrol the fire perimeter.