Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

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CannondaleKid
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Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by CannondaleKid » Nov 04 2014 10:14 am

While I truly hate politics and politicians, this has got my goat...
:SB:
Anybody been keeping up with the scrub-land for Oak Flat land exchange between Resolution Copper and the US Government?
Namely: H.R. 687 - Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

There may be a Land Exchange taking place but I don't believe Conservation has anything to do with it. Maybe conservation of $$ for Resolution Copper, or more accurately, Rio Tinto and BHP Billiton, two of the largest mining companies in the world (English & Australian), who just happen to be partnering with an up-and-coming Chinese mining company.

Between the billions of gallons of water necessary for this type of mining along with the monstrous hole in the ground that will eventually form when the 7,000-foot deep 'cave' collapses in 25-30 years, I may be dead and gone by the (and possibly so will the legislators who vote for it) but I don't believe it's a good thing.

If interested, you can read the whole bill here: (all two pages of it so I would hope it is a summary)
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44416
Check out all the vague language in the document...

"Enacting the legislation could increase offsetting receipts..."
What? Vote on the unknown, sounds like a good idea? NOT!

"If the property sought by Resolution Copper is appraised at more than the appraised value of the property that the company offers for exchange, the company could donate additional land or make a cash payment to the United States."
COULD?! This should read MUST!

If the company’s property is appraised for more than the federal acreage, the difference in the value would be considered a donate to the federal government"
What?! So they can write more off their taxes?? Oh wait... And further what taxes will come to the US and Arizona out of it anyway? The employee's?

"In addition, after completion of the exchange, Resolution Copper would have to pay the federal government a portion of any future income earned on the former federal property if the company determines that the actual cumulative production of minerals located on that property exceeds the value of the estimated production used in the original appraisal process."
Again, shouldn't the US Government or an independent organization make this determination and NOT the company who will benefit if (when) they understate the value?

"Therefore, we cannot determine whether the company would make a payment or estimate the size of any such payment."
So much for having valid information to make an informed decision to vote for against this bill.

While Senator McCain visited the current mine and got the two-bit propaganda tour, what he needs to do is go look at the scrub-land that Resolution wants to trade for Oak Flat. From what I've seen of it it isn't fit for recreation anything like the Oak Flat area.

Oh well, if it gets passed then in 25-30 years maybe the monstrous hole in the ground that forms could be called the Gosar/Flake/McCain Meteor Crater... after all, we Arizonans won't know what hit us until too late.

:M2C:
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by trekkin_gecko » Nov 04 2014 1:40 pm

lots of discussion on this in climbing circles

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by CannondaleKid » Nov 04 2014 3:46 pm

trekkin gecko wrote:lots of discussion on this in climbing circles
A few years back I had been keeping up with this on a number of other forums and if I recall correctly one of the big issues (unrelated to the sacred or the recreational aspects) was where they would get all the water to use in the mining process, including the possibility of causing a significant drop in the water table. I think the town of Queen Valley was very concerned.

Seems to be with my change of computers I've lost the links to the sites I had been following. Guess I'll have to do some mining of my own again.
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by CannondaleKid » Nov 06 2014 11:10 am

SURGEON GENERALS WARNING: Reading and/or responding to this message may be hazardous to your health and blood pressure.
(Just be aware that by ignoring the subject it may very well be hazardous to the health and welfare of future generations.)

I've been doing further mining of the 'Net on this subject and the more I find the more incensed I get. OK, here goes...
:SB:
This subject has been brought up 5 times in Congress over the last 10 years and it has been voted down every time. Thankfully the representatives (and senators, an identical bill is also before the Senate: S. 339) of the OTHER states have been more concerned about the negative effects than ANY of our Arizona reps. And in fact ALL our federal legislators from Arizona continually bring it up and vote for it.

Last September was the most current defeat, in which one representative stated (it's on the Congressional Record):
[This was 9/26/13 when the US was at the brink of the government shutdown]
... here we are today, debating a sweetheart piece of legislation that hurts taxpayers and comforts, yes, foreign multinational mining corporations. We have seen at least five different versions of this legislation over the past 10 years. If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, we all might need to spend some time getting our heads examined.

Yet our Federal 'Arizona representatives' insist on doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Of course that probably has something to do with the admitted $1 billion Resolution Copper has already spent an getting this deal. Did some/all our reps get some or lots of cash out of this pot??
:STP:
How can we know, since Resolution Copper bought up a lot of the land they want to exchange through many shell companies that shielded the sellers from the true buyer. Yes, companies with names like "Integrity Land & Cattle" which bought up land ostensibly for cattle grazing. Yet their true intent was to turn around and swap it for mineral Federal lands. This allowed them to buy the land on the cheap.

But get this, the land will be appraised after the bill is passed and just watch, the value will happen to a much higher than what they paid. So when they swap the land, the Federal Government (we, the people) will get the shaft... and not a multi-billion $ one like Resolution Copper's 5,000-foot mineshaft.

But this is only the tip of the iceberg...
WATER:
An annual 40,000 acre-feet of water will be required for the mining, the same amount as the City of Tempe! And so far Resolution Copper has not come up with exactly WHERE this water will come from. They are currently buying 'credits' against future needs from the AZ CAP... water that is currently being taken up in response to the needs during this drought cycle.
RECREATION:
We will lose prime hiking/climbing areas for a lot of scrub-land... Over the last 3 years I've actually driven through and/or walked on three of the areas that Resolution Copper will swap for the Oak Flat/Apache Leap area. Frankly there is no comparison, much is useless scrub-land that has been over-grazed and some are devoid of anything other than a sandy dry wash. Not suitable for hiking, and as far as climbing?? Too bad!
SACRED LANDS:
I'm not going to get any deeper in this than to say the way the bill is written, a number of Federal laws relating to sacred lands (whether on a reservation or not) will be trampled.
JOBS:
All kinds of figures have been batted around, and the job creation number seems to have risen over the ten years this has been debated. First it was 3,700 jobs, then 4,000, some estimates close to 5,000.
But even at the 3,700 figure, that is for initial engineering jobs not average worker jobs. How many of the 2840 (men-women-children inclusive) folks in Superior are engineers? And once all the initial engineering stuff is done, digging deeper it appears it may be down to 1,500 jobs total, again, not much of the local-Joe type of workers. Don't kid yourself... the folks living in Superior will not see much change to their bottom-line. Check out the Miami-Globe area and tell me why all the homes are falling apart and most of the folks are driving junkers? Copper mining hasn't helped them, the $$ has left the community and gone to the companies.
The bill sponsors keep saying this will bring prosperity to Superior, new grocery stores, fast-food businesses, new housing, etc. Ok, so when they dig such a big hole that it collapses (which this type of mining will do in 20-30 years) and many jobs go away, Superior will be left with empty houses, and degrade to worse shape than Miami is today. When you drive through Miami on the 60, is that a booming community? Hardly!
MINING PLAN:
Again, from the Congressional Record...
Resolution Copper continues to oppose any requirement of filing a mining plan of operation before this legislation is passed. It's been
10 years since this project was proposed--and we still have no mining plan.

And more:
All we know about the proposed mine is purely speculative and comes from data and reports produced by Resolution Copper, itself. And the common refrain from supporters to trust without validation--don't worry, it will all work out--those are not the due diligence requirements that this Congress has on a major land exchange as we are facing today.
GIVING AWAY FEDERAL RESOURCES:
Taking into account the value of the resources that will be swapped away for cheaply-acquired land that will be appraised AFTER the swap?? It's downright wrong!
:gun:
While we here in the Valley and elsewhere in Arizona may not want to get involved in this issue, and frankly, may not even care, by doing nothing and letting this happen in its current form (where Resolution Copper sets most of the terms)... it will be a travesty affecting future generations.

Get involved! Find out why it's wrong! Write not only our Arizona reps but the Congressional reps for all states, as they seem to have a better grasp of the multi-billion dollar giveaway to foreign companies**, and tell them you aren't one of the Arizona lemmings being led by Gosar/Salmon/Flake/McCain over a cliff. Oh wait... they will step aside and let us go over without them while they get wined and dined by their $$ buddies, Resolution Copper.
:M2C:
** Resolution Copper is a Delaware Corporation (no taxes) owned as a joint-venture between BHP Billiton and Rio Tinto, fully foreign-owned companies.
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by Al_HikesAZ » Dec 04 2014 2:44 pm

Brace yourself. Looks like it might go through this time. It has been attached to the NDAA (National Defense Authorization Act) which is a "must pass" measure.
When Terry Rambler, the chairman of the San Carlos Apache Tribe, woke up Wednesday in Washington, D.C., it was to learn that Congress was deciding to give away a large part of his ancestral homeland to a foreign mining company.
Rambler felt things got off to an unfortunate, if familiar, start when he learned that the House and Senate Armed Services Committee had decided to use the lame-duck session of Congress and the National Defense Authorization Act to give 2,400 acres of the Tonto National Forest in Arizona to a subsidiary of the Australian-English mining giant Rio Tinto.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/0 ... 1417646149
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by rwstorm » Dec 04 2014 2:47 pm

Same kind of crap they pulled to get the scopes on Mt. Graham back in the 80's. :whistle:
Onward into oblivion!

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by CannondaleKid » Dec 04 2014 3:59 pm

This video has been around for a few years but unfortunately not many folks have seen it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiME3XWEPjU
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by rwstorm » Dec 04 2014 4:14 pm

@CannondaleKid
Thanks for posting this Mark. It brings tears to my eyes and makes my blood boil.
Onward into oblivion!

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by Bradshaws » Dec 04 2014 5:00 pm

Only when the last tree has died
and the last river been poisoned and the last fish been caught
will we realise we cannot eat money.
~ Cree Indian Proverb ~

It makes me sick to my stomach :( Unfortunately nothing will change till it's too late. By the time human beings realize money has no worth there will be nothing left to save.
Regrettably the people that are making the decisions and profits will have long died before OUR children and grandchildren will have to deal with the consequences :x I pity those who follow our wake :cry:
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by Bradshaws » Dec 04 2014 5:28 pm

:tt: :tt: I'm watching Chanel 3! This story got less than 5 seconds!! WTF!! There's no wonder there are so few people that know about it :tt: :tt:

This just my :M2C: That's all this is :stop: Sometimes I wonder if humanity isn't getting what it deserves :-k If no one cares that they're in a frying pan; is it the cooks fault they get burned?

...sigh...
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by CannondaleKid » Dec 04 2014 5:38 pm

The only responses I received from McCain & Salmon over the last few years just spouted the same garbage. Matt Salmon also made it clear he would vote for it whenever it came up for a vote so now that it did I'm sure he did just that. [-X
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by CannondaleKid » Dec 04 2014 5:44 pm

Bradshaws wrote:... will we realize we cannot eat money
Too bad our representatives don't choke on the bucket-loads ($1B) of money Resolution Copper has spent over the last 10 years trying to get this deal.
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by rwstorm » Dec 04 2014 5:45 pm

Same old song and dance. ;)
Last edited by rwstorm on Dec 05 2014 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Onward into oblivion!

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by Bradshaws » Dec 04 2014 5:57 pm

Word to the wise... Go see this area soon.... Because it won't be there much longer :lone:
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by CannondaleKid » Dec 04 2014 7:19 pm

Bradshaws wrote:Word to the wise... Go see this area soon.... Because it won't be there much longer :lone:
That's why I was out along the Apache Leap ridge just over a week ago and I plan on more out that way in the next month or so.
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by Jim_H » Dec 04 2014 7:27 pm

Line Item Veto?
:o

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by Bradshaws » Dec 04 2014 9:46 pm

Jim_H wrote:Line Item Veto?
That is adorable :lol: In this day and age there is nothing and I mean NOTHING that has more power that the all mighty dollar!
:SB:
A VETO to a multi billion dollar corporation is the same as a MAYBE to a 5 year old; not quite a YES but defiantly not a NO :-s

Child - "Can I have the candy?"
Adult - " Maybe!?"
- Child stays calm knowing she can have the candy once everything has calmed down.

Mining company - " Can I have this land to dig up for copper?" "Legislators said we could have it!"
Governor - "VETO!"
- Mining company stays calm knowing their money will calm things down so they can get their CANDY.
“ you know what I think?... It doesn’t matter what I think”

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by Jim_H » Dec 04 2014 9:57 pm

Line item vetoes of a Federal Law would be performed by the President, not the Arizona Governor. If the Republicans really want it, they can then vote and over ride the veto, but that requires a two-thirds majority vote in both houses, so it is a possibility if the President acts on that line item.
:o

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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by Bradshaws » Dec 04 2014 10:58 pm

My bad, I did mean to put president in the place of governor. :oops:

But even if I were to put President in place of Governor little would change. Actually it might make it worse :?

Democrat, Republican, Independent, Libertarian, Green, Blue, Red or Purple party, no one will turn down the kind of campaign contributions that companies like this can throw around :M2C:

I hate to be so negative and I do hope for the best outcome in this particular situation. To me that I mean "the mining companies can get bent" but I know that the right thing rarely happens :(
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Re: Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act

Post by big_load » Dec 04 2014 11:11 pm

Bradshaws wrote:Only when the last tree has died
and the last river been poisoned and the last fish been caught
will we realise we cannot eat money.
~ Cree Indian Proverb ~
When we reach that condition, there will still be people who wonder if they could have gotten more.

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