Got a "Notice of Required Fee" in Sabino Canyon

[MikeC]

So, I have an annual federal, all agency pass that I will throw on my dash when I go to Sabino Canyon. On Saturday, as I was parking, it must have slipped into a crack between the dash and the windshield, so it wasn't visible. Anyway, after a hike to seven falls, I found a "Notice of Required Fee" on my window. I'm marginally familiar with the controversy over USFS fees, I've read the opinion of the western slope no fee coalition on the Sabino Canyon fee (http://www.westernslopenofee.org/.../20 ... oronado_Us...), and I've read the 9th Circuit opinion from the Adams case.

My question is, what am I missing here? I parked, walked the road to the Bear Canyon trailhead, visited seven falls, and walked back to my car. I didn't use a trash can, or a toilet or a drinking fountain. As I read the Adams opinion, the forest service cannot charge for mere parking and hiking, when no other amenities are used. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case ... i=scholarr

Again, what am I missing?

[Tough_Boots]

Just go talk to someone at the ranger district and bring along your interagency pass.

[outdoor_lover]

@Tough_Boots
I don't think that's his Point....

[Tough_Boots]

@Outdoor Lover

yeah I got that, Pam... but my suggestion is a better use of time than a big forum discussion about five dollars.

[outdoor_lover]

Seriously Kyle? Last I heard this Forum was not just for Discussion, but also for Answering People's Questions...He had a Question and was trying to get Clarification on something that he doesn't understand. I'm sure that there is someone on here that might be knowledgeable enough about it and Generous enough with THEIR TIME, that they might Answer his Question....And yes, last I heard there was not a Minimum Dollar Amount for a Subject to be Discussed. And if you Hike Sabino Canyon 10 Times a Year, it becomes 50 Dollars...That might be worth someone's Time....

If you don't want to see a Big Discussion, then Skip the Subject...It's Ok to do that....

Way to treat someone who rarely Posts as it is Kyle...Pretty Brutal....

[chumley]

Sabino Canyon is a "recreation area" and therefore subject to a fee. Same as Madera canyon. While you may park in a spot that has no amenities, it is a high use area and subject to fees.

Mt Lemmon is also a fee-based special use area however the FS used to apply that fee for the entire stretch of the Catalina Hwy. That is no longer valid since it is such a large area with no amenities in most places.

There are still areas where a fee is required. Sabino is one of them. The red rock pass in Sedona is another example. The area it was required in has been greatly reduced but it is still required just to park your car in some places.

I bet there are lawyers who can't figure it out!

But since you have the pass I wouldn't worry about it other than to make sure it's more visible next time!

[MikeC]

Just go talk to someone at the ranger district and bring along your interagency pass.

I am not inclined to do that until I understand why the usfs believes that what it is doing in Sabino Canyon is consistent with Adams. I understand the Sabino Canyon is a HIRA (tho 7 falls is not in it), but I do not understand why that matters. The Adams court seems to saying that there can be no charge for parking and hiking, even some place with amenities, unless you actually use them.

[Tough_Boots]

@MikeC

What I meant was that maybe a good starting point to finding out information about the fee you don't understand is by asking the people charging you that fee-- in this case ask at the ranger district. Pam apparently thinks my response was "brutal" so I apologize about that.

@Outdoor Lover

If you hike Sabino 10 times a year, I recommend you get the $20 annual pass instead of paying $50. See-- I can be helpful

[Jim]

I was happy I bought my Interagency Yearly Pass, but the cost is $80 for a year.
http://www.fs.fed.us/passespermits/annual.shtml

It was probably a good value, as I used it every so often at Sabino, Madera, in Saguaro, and once at GCNP and twice in Sedona. Maybe not a great value, but over all a value. I need to use it at least once more at a NP to really get my money's worth. I just view it as cheap enough and forget about it. If it fell in a crack at Sabino, they'll ticket because they are super pumpkin port about money there. They did just pave the lot, and it is a tourist site. It is really a shame the trails leave from there.

[outdoor_lover]

If you hike Sabino 10 times a year, I recommend you get the $20 annual pass instead of paying $50. See-- I can be helpful

Better Kyle, better....That's the Kyle I know...There's Hope for you yet my Friend.... I think getting an Annual Pass is a good Idea if you KNOW that you will be Frequenting a Place....But if you're like me and you really DON"T know where you will be and how many Times you will be there over the Course of a Year then Annual Passes can get Expensive with the Possibility of no Payoff...If I got Annual Passes for all the Places I think I might be more than Once a Year, I'd have a Handful of Passes and not be able to Afford to go anywhere....But back to Mike's Concern...Should they be charging at all?

@Mike C I think the only way you can get an Answer to that Question would be to Test it in Court...If Adams is Accurate, the USFS is trying to make it a Gray Area and Bully People into Paying the Fee, regardless, by Issuing Warnings...Would you be willing to Take a Ticket and fight it in Court? Most People are not, so they will just Pay it, because Kyle does have a Point, it's just 5.00...How much would your Legal Fees be? I think rather than Asking the FS who has nothing to lose by trying to Impose the Fee, your Question and Concern would have to be Taken up in Court where there would be a Ruling on the Interpretation of the Law....There are places where the FS does not Charge to just Park and Hike...Some of the Campgrounds in the Pinalenos come to mind...You are Parking in a Campground, but you don't have to Pay....(Slightly Different Scenario than yours though)....

[chumley]

The Adams court seems to saying that there can be no charge for parking and hiking, even some place with amenities, unless you actually use them.

As others have said, it's $5. But if you're like me-- sometimes it's worth the fight on principle alone! In that case lawyer-up, get yourself ticketed, and fight it in court. I'm sure there are many on here who would be interested in the outcome.

[gummo]

You probably don't need a lawyer. You shouldn't have to prove to the court or anyone that you are innocent, because you are innocent until proven guilty. The accuser has to provide evidence that you used any of the amenities, so if you go to court, your questions should be, Have you seen me use the amenities? Are you familiar with Adams court (or whatever that is)? etc...

[Jim]

This is where the ambiguity ensues, as the paved lot might be an amenity. The bathrooms sure are.

[Tough_Boots]

I googled around a little bit. There's no specific information pertaining to Coronado but I found on a another national forest's site that the "notice of required fee" is more of a warning and a request for payment than an enforceable ticket. Something else that is actually enforceable would be issued to "habitual offenders". Though different national forests can vary in how they handle their rules, I would consider the "notice of required fee" as standard language for the Forest Service and be fairly comfortable ignoring the notice. When you get an enforceable ticket or citation, I imagine it will be obvious.