Boy Scouts - Good or Bad?

jmangum · Post by **jmangum** » Jul 14 2003 9:20 am

From time to time I have read some forum posts that make reference to Boy Scouts - mostly in a negative manner. I was wondering how everyone feels about them.

I know that it can sometimes be a downer to be out on a trail and come across a herd of noisy teens, but on the other hand I am in full support that gets teens off their butts, out from in front of the TV and Play Station and in to nature.

Thom · Post by **Thom** » Jul 21 2003 1:36 pm

matt gilbert wrote:I think if anything the BSA could reach more young people this way. After all, it does seem like if your not part of the church that sponsors the local BSA program, you're not really a member anyway.

SIgh... It sucks that everyone seems to think this out here. Part of the reason I haven't gotten involved with a troop out here is because it has been considerably skewed by LDS influence. On several occasions, upon visiting troops out here, one of the very first questions I'd been asked was whether or not I was Mormon, and upon hearing that I wasn't, the leadership seemed to just ignore me for the rest of the night. There are a number of non-LDS troops, but unfortunately many of them are just led by frustrated parents who didn't like the way LDS troops were being run and wanted to give their kids a fair chance in the Scout program.

(It is kinda sad... And I by no means intend to dog LDS troops... I'm just speaking from a good culmination of personal and gathered experiences.)

Heck, I can tell you for a fact (from having worked at a Scout camp) that LDS-chartered troops even have their own paperwork, different from that of other BSA troops. Now, I was simply an instructor for the Eaglebound (first-year camper) program, so I don't know the structure from the ground up, but it seems like the different rules had been set to streamline the promotional process through the Scout ranks. A lot of counselors were annoyed that some kids were getting through so easily... Really, I think it's a disservice to the organization and the boys themselves to just treat Scouting as a status symbol or resume polisher and not expose them to the challenges that will really make them grow & mature. But, I guess BSA believes that a bastardized form of their program is better than none at all, especially considering the amount of support that the Mormon church has lent. And I'd have to agree with that.

Anyhow, back to my point... With aforementioned exceptions, most church-chartered troops are not members-only. I went to a troop that was Presbyterian-chartered, and we had Baptists, Methodists, an Episcopalian or two, and even a few Mormons from time to time. The other troop in town was Baptist-chartered and had pretty much the same dispersion (amazing considering the amount of enmity Baptists and Methodists otherwise had against each other in that town).

Kenny · Post by **Kenny** » Jul 21 2003 1:45 pm

No, I did no say that.
Some people drive classic cars and are very happy.
Some like newer ones.
Does NAMBLA speak for all or a minority? (kind of strange having an organized effort here) (minority)

Yes, we all have friends ..... and everyone is surprised when someone the thought they knew gets caught... (no group implied here)

oops sorry... off thread

Scouting is good, I was one too.

Snick33 · Post by **Snick33** » Jul 21 2003 2:04 pm

Daryl wrote:Kenny,

Are you implying that all homosexuals are also pedophiles?

I've got to get in my last two cents worth: Technically speaking, a man who sexually abuses a boy, may or may not be a homosexual. He is however, definitely a pedophile. I understand from my psycho-babble friends that he’s actually more likely not to be a homosexual.

Its like making the mistake of thinking rape is a crime of passion when it’s actually a crime of violence.

Daryl · Post by **Daryl** » Jul 21 2003 4:55 pm

NAMBLA and homosexuality are two very different things.

ck_1 · Post by **ck_1** » Jul 21 2003 9:35 pm

Kenny - what are you saying? I'm not certain I understand your perspective here, it sounds like you're equating homosexuality with pedophilia. If this is true, you need to do a bit of research to understand what you're talking about. If not, then I apologize. It just came across as a very homophobic statement.

I've gotten two PM's from tinyelvis. One explained how why he read the whole thread to then complain about it...apparently he thinks some of us are windbags

. He ended it by saying something like "no offense"....then another arrived in which he said, and I quote, "shame on you" for bringing up the boy scouts and homosexuality.

Hey Tiny, please don't pm me anymore, oh, wait, go ahead and pm me all you'd like...see...I, unlike you, can chose what I want to read. DELETE.

azhiker96 wrote: I think if the BSA wants to exclude homosexuals they have the right to do that in this country. (Although it would be easier for them to exclude people with A negative blood; there's a test for that.) I have the right to not donate any money to them. I can also ask corporations not to fund them. If I really wanted a non-discriminatory Boy scouts organization I could form one.

Overall, I think the BSA is a good group that's just stuck a little bit in the past. I'm glad they take kids into the woods and attempt to give them an appreciatation of nature.

So well said! That's the whole point. Exactly.

Wow, this has been an enjoyable discussion. I'm impressed with some of the well thought out and articulated perspectives. BRAVO

cavedweller · Post by **cavedweller** » Jul 21 2003 9:50 pm

I voted good but it really depends on how you cook them.

ck_1 · Post by **ck_1** » Jul 21 2003 9:52 pm

cavedweller wrote:I voted good but it really depends on how you cook them.

OK, now that's funny.

Kenny · Post by **Kenny** » Jul 22 2003 7:15 am

No, not homophobic or pedophobic or even priestophobic, oops off thread

But didn't you notice cavedweller .... I might be cannibalophobic.

I do have a serious question...

Why do homosexuals even want to be scout leaders?

:
Why is it an issue, an agenda item? I don't get it?
Is it just because BSA said NO ???

olesma · Post by **olesma** » Jul 22 2003 8:21 am

Kenny wrote:Why do homosexuals even want to be scout leaders? :
Why is it an issue, an agenda item? I don't get it?
Is it just because BSA said NO ???

Okay - we are now entering realms in which I have opinions, but no practical knowledge. We're talking about things that I cannot contribute to effectively or knowledgably.

So, I think (for now) that I am officially done with this topic. I've said my peace. Many thanks to the terriffic opinions and discussion generated on this topic.

It's been a good forum topic so far (one of the best ever in fact) - if the discussion turns around to something that I can contribute to, I'll jump back in. But - look for me in other posts.

Snick33 · Post by **Snick33** » Jul 22 2003 8:49 am

Quote:Why do homosexuals even want to be scout leaders?

Why do left handed people want to be scout leaders? why do people with green eyes want to be scout leaders? I doubt that have an agenda, they just want to teach, they want to do their civic duty, they want to be part of their community. I doubt that they want their sexuality involved at all. But when it comes time for a social get together of area scout leaders; why should the homosexual scout leader have to leave his or her signifcant other at home so as to not offend anyone. I presume that's what "coming out of the closet" is all about. Not to make a scene or take a political stance, but rather to be what is his or her right to be, normal . . . . .

Billy · Post by **Billy** » Jul 22 2003 2:49 pm

I presume that's what "coming out of the closet" is all about. Not to make a scene or take a political stance, but rather to be what is his or her right to be, normal . . . . as stated by Snick33

First of all, I would like to say that I love all of you, and have enjoyed reading the debate/opinions of all those who have posted. I am surprised to see so many of those who are in support of allowing homosexuals as leaders for scouts, just.......very surprised.

Times change, but is it for the best? Should the BSA change their standards to fit in with what a (apparently) large portion of society deem as socially and morally acceptable. What is acceptable to you, may not be acceptable to me, and so forth. The BSA made a stand, and for their organization, it was the right position for them.

If you would like to read more, you may click on my link below:

http://hometown.aol.com/arzgrl2/page5.html

Daryl · Post by **Daryl** » Jul 22 2003 5:25 pm

The debate will go on and on...

Times change, right and wrong changes.

In our history, most people, governments and even most religions supported slavery. It's even supported in the bible.

I think the Boy Scouts is a great organization, they are just a little slow. Heck, they still use metal canteens!

mttgilbert · Post by **mttgilbert** » Jul 22 2003 5:30 pm

Daryl wrote:Heck, they still use metal canteens!

Ha! Truly a sign of the times

sherileeaz · Post by **sherileeaz** » Jul 22 2003 5:51 pm

matt gilbert wrote:
Daryl wrote:Heck, they still use metal canteens!
Ha! Truly a sign of the times

For me, that's my concern, that the children are not being taught state of the art ways or using state of the art equipment. For example public schools, they have antiquated computer systems, older text books, etc.
Will the basics help the children? Yes, but wouldn't state of the art training and equipment do that much more. YES! I applaud parents who take an active role in supplementing a childs learning experience and not leaving it up to an organization to do this.

Sherileeaz

jmangum · Post by **jmangum** » Jul 22 2003 5:55 pm

sherileeaz wrote:
matt gilbert wrote:
Daryl wrote:Heck, they still use metal canteens!
Ha! Truly a sign of the times
For me, that's my concern, that the children are not being taught state of the art ways or using state of the art equipment. For example public schools, they have antiquated computer systems, older text books, etc.
Will the basics help the children? Yes, but wouldn't state of the art training and equipment do that much more.

This is an outrage! I'm officially going to start a camelbak drive to help those poor, unfortunate children. Who can help?

tempe8 · Post by **tempe8** » Jul 22 2003 6:24 pm

Great web page Billy. I believe you've gotten to the heart of the matter...do you believe in God's Word or do you not. If you do, then the Word is clear on the subject of homosexuality. The Scouts are specific in what their value system is, as evidenced by the Scout Oath:

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Note, the second line and the last line. Seems pretty clear to me what their beliefs are. Now why do different liberal entities feel it's there job to chip away at these institutions?

I mentioned it before, but the prevailing attitude here seems to be moral-relativism...there is no right or wrong...just personal decisions. For any one that's interested in a logical, articulate discussion of that matter, read this: http://www.moral-relativism.com/default.htm

mttgilbert · Post by **mttgilbert** » Jul 22 2003 6:27 pm

So do people who don't meet your standards of morality not deserve to be scouts?

tempe8 · Post by **tempe8** » Jul 22 2003 6:29 pm

matt gilbert wrote:So do people who don't meet your standards of morality not deserve to be scouts?

You're side stepping the issue Matt. Read line 2 and line 6 of the Scout oath, it's very clear.

mttgilbert · Post by **mttgilbert** » Jul 22 2003 6:38 pm

To do my duty to God and my country
and
mentally awake, and morally straight. <--- thats the important part right?

Now, please don't just tell me that the following is just 'moral relativism', it obviously is; but who's morality? There is more than one set of moral beliefs in the world, and each sets God says thats the right one. So I'm asking you; If I am jewish I don't follow the same moral codes as a christian (similar, but ultimately different) then do I not deserve to be a scout?

If this isn't the issue then I'm clearly missing something in your argument and you will have to be more clear (an answer would be nice anyway though).

jmangum · Post by **jmangum** » Jul 22 2003 6:42 pm

matt gilbert wrote:So do people who don't meet your standards of morality not deserve to be scouts?

Here is an true life analogy:
Did you know that there is a Phoenix Chapter of the "Tall Persons Club" You must be at least 6' 5" tall to join if you are a male, 6'1" tall if you are a female. I personally don't meet their "standards" - Am I being discriminated against?

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