Bears Ears National Monument

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PaleoRob
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Bears Ears National Monument

Post by PaleoRob » Jan 03 2017 11:36 am

A little bit surprised that no one has started a post about this development (unless I missed it somewhere), but many of you have probably already seen it on the news or on the Facebooks. A number of the Utah hikes indexed on here will now have to be reclassified as being in Bears Ears National Monument as opposed to just "BLM" or "Cedar Mesa special use." I'm sure folks on here many different opinions on it.
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CannondaleKid
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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by CannondaleKid » Jan 06 2017 10:45 am

oldmanonthetrail wrote:Sorry to bring info wars into the picture but this is what I was referring to Is it 'fake news' or click bait?
Fake news? Click-bait?
In this day and age, is there ANY way we can know what is the truth about anything?
All it takes is to start up a web site, spout the wackiest and/or inflammatory words to draw attention to the site, and voila! you're an expert on everything.

Now let's take a moment to peek behind the green curtain at InfoWars and see what kind of wizard Alex Jones may be. Here's something that caught my eye in the section 'About Alex Jones':

The manipulation of facts and the slow relentless war on reality is being waged on this landscape of the mind.

Hmmm, I wonder who he believes 'the 'manipulation' is done by?
The Federal government? State governments? The media? The politicians? Off-the-deep-end websites?

Personally, I'd lean toward placing InfoWars in with the latter. After all, are we sure Alex Jones isn't a manipulator of facts himself?

As far as Bear Ears National Monument, I don't know yet how this may affect my hiking plans (I have many hikes in that area still on my to-do list) but I''ll take my time going through the official information as it becomes available. I noticed the 'official' map was released the same day as the announcement, so maybe it won't take too long before we have a better idea how it will affect us.

In reference to Federal 'land grabs'... it's a misuse of the term when these lands likely have been Federally owned for longer than any of us here have been alive.
:M2C:

{Edit} This may help answer a few questions:
Bear-Ears-Fact-Sheet.pdf
Bear Ears National Monument Fact Sheet
(460.31 KiB) Downloaded 33 times
CannondaleKid

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toddak
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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by toddak » Jan 07 2017 11:07 am

It seems like Bears Ears NM may be a similar situation to Agua Fria NM, which was created in the waning days of Bill Clinton's presidency. While there are no doubt new restrictions on large scale commercial development, I don't think much has actually changed in Agua Fria for hikers and explorers, its still pretty much wild, wide-open land. Politicians love to dole out political favors and build their legacies, but in the case of huge tracts like Bears Ears, Parashant, Grand Staircase, etc, they rarely provide the resources needed to actively manage them. Wanderers will still be able to wander.

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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by RedRoxx44 » Jan 07 2017 11:51 am

However in Parashant where I previously drove to a TH quite a few are blocked and labeled oddly as "viewpoints". I exchanged some emails with Mike Kelsey the guidebook writer and he will be updating upcoming versions of his books covering this area. However the walk is not long in most cases. One or two of the spots I am thinking of are not going to be fun for canyoneering folks hauling lots of gear.
I think most of it is of course funding, less roads to maintain, and better able to keep an eye on folks for permit and possible rescue purposes, and less likely to be up to mischief cutting down trees, leaving littered campsites and off roading where they shouldn't.

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flagscott
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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by flagscott » Jan 07 2017 2:11 pm

toddak wrote:Politicians love to dole out political favors and build their legacies, but in the case of huge tracts like Bears Ears, Parashant, Grand Staircase, etc, they rarely provide the resources needed to actively manage them.
I'm not sure what you mean here. National Monuments are designated by the president. The "resources" to manage those monuments, the money, is completely under the control of Congress, who has budgetary authority under the Constitution. So, if the monuments are being under-funded (I don't know if that's true or not--haven't looked into it myself), blame the majority party in Congress.

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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by SuperstitionGuy » Jan 07 2017 3:33 pm

flagscott wrote:o, if the monuments are being under-funded (I don't know if that's true or not--haven't looked into it myself), blame the majority party in Congress.
If the monuments are under-funded do not create them unless the budget is balanced and there is no deficit!
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chumley
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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by chumley » Jan 07 2017 8:34 pm

toddak wrote: Politicians love to dole out political favors and build their legacies
flagscott wrote: I'm not sure what you mean here. National Monuments are designated by the president.
:-k

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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by azbackpackr » Jan 08 2017 4:50 am

Grand Canyon Trust has sent out an email saying they've had word that Obama will not be creating a "Greater Grand Canyon Watershed NM."

The reason the designation was hoped for was to stop the uranium mining.
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flagscott
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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by flagscott » Jan 08 2017 7:40 am

chumley wrote:
toddak wrote: Politicians love to dole out political favors and build their legacies
flagscott wrote: I'm not sure what you mean here. National Monuments are designated by the president.
:-k
So, you're taking me out of context and acting puzzled as a result? Oy. My comment was about resources to manage monuments, not their designation. Anyway, I've neverheard of a monument designation being connected to any kind of political favor or corruption, as toddak implied.

As for building legacies, ALL presidents seek to build a legacy. And part of that legacy for some, includes conservation, so designating monuments is a means to that end. If that is some how corrupt, please address your comments to Congress for failing to overturn the Antiquities Act, not me.

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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by rcorfman » Jan 08 2017 5:20 pm

toddak wrote:It seems like Bears Ears NM may be a similar situation to Agua Fria NM, which was created in the waning days of Bill Clinton's presidency. While there are no doubt new restrictions on large scale commercial development, I don't think much has actually changed in Agua Fria for hikers and explorers, its still pretty much wild, wide-open land.
I can only comment on what I've seen since Agua Fria NM was created. I don't know the reasons, this is only anecdotal. Several roads have been closed off or shortened. Some washes have been blocked to motor vehicle travel. The last time I went to Richinbar (Nov. 2015), all cattle operations seemed to have been stopped. I haven't seen any sheep herders for several years. There's been a pit toilet added.
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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by Al_HikesAZ » Jan 08 2017 8:16 pm

I just hope that this stands. What one President can create with a pen, another President can erase with a pen. Sorry to be a cold blanket. We are just in uncharted waters. There are strong political pressures that were opposing this action. It's not over until it's over.
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chumley
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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by chumley » Jan 08 2017 8:32 pm

Al_HikesAZ wrote:What one President can create with a pen, another President can erase with a pen.
The Antiquities Act is a one-way street. It gives authority to the President to create monuments. It doesn't give any such authority to "dis-establish" existing monuments. Doing so would be unprecedented. Nonetheless, I wouldn't rule anything out at this point in our republic.

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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by Tough_Boots » Jan 08 2017 8:36 pm

@chumley
There have been monuments turned into national parks and national battlefields but I'm not exactly sure how that transfer works.
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wha
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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by wha » Jan 08 2017 9:00 pm

Saguaro National Park by Tucson is one of those that was a monument, https://www.nps.gov/sagu/planyourvisit/snp-history.htm

The president can create a monument from federal land. It takes an act of Congress to make one a national park.

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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by Al_HikesAZ » Jan 08 2017 9:47 pm

Sorry Chumley. You are almost right.
chumley wrote:The Antiquities Act is a one-way street. It gives authority to the President to create monuments. It doesn't give any such authority to "dis-establish" existing monuments. Doing so would be unprecedented. Nonetheless, I wouldn't rule anything out at this point in our republic.
Not quite so
https://coast.noaa.gov...
The Antiquities Act of 1906 authorizes the President to create national monuments on federal lands that contain historic landmarks, historic and prehistoric structures, or other objects of historic or scientific interest. The President is to reserve “the smallest area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to be protected.”
So, Is this the "SMALLEST AREA"? How about they restrict it to one square acre?
Anybody can make a hike harder. The real skill comes in making the hike easier.
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chumley
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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by chumley » Jan 08 2017 10:20 pm

chumley wrote:To date, no court challenges have succeeded.
As I said originally, I wouldn't rule anything out. But it hasn't happened before.
Where did I talk about Court challenges? I was talking about Presidential Rescission.
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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by flagscott » Jan 09 2017 7:48 am

Al_HikesAZ wrote:
The Antiquities Act of 1906 authorizes the President to create national monuments on federal lands that contain historic landmarks, historic and prehistoric structures, or other objects of historic or scientific interest. The President is to reserve “the smallest area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to be protected.”
So, Is this the "SMALLEST AREA"? How about they restrict it to one square acre?
I'm not lawyer, but two things:
1) I suspect that if a lawsuit arose challenging a monument as not conforming to the "smallest area" standard, the courts would defer to the president. Each monument comes with a proclamation from the president describing the justification for the monument. The Bears Ears proclamation, for instance, goes on about all of the culturally significant places and the paleo and human history of the area: https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-of ... l-monument . So, the justification has been provided.

2) When the "objects of scientific interest" include natural features, rock layers, ecosystems, wildlife, fisheries (there are ocean monuments, too), old-growth forests etc., it's obvious that you need a large-scale monument to protect those sorts of features, not just a few acres here and there. When Clinton protected all of the unprotected Giant Sequoia groves in a national monument, he included the surrounding forests because of the need to restore healthy fire regimes to the entire region--you can't just do that for individual sequoia groves without taking the surrounding forests into consideration. http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=62321

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Al_HikesAZ
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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by Al_HikesAZ » Jan 18 2017 7:54 pm

Looks like we will soon know.http://www.sltrib.com/...
Interior nominee: President has power to amend, maybe remove, monument designation
Anybody can make a hike harder. The real skill comes in making the hike easier.
Not if we can help it UNCLE JACK. http://www.sleepingdogtv.com/reel/Uncle-Jack.aspx Not if we can help it.

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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by Tough_Boots » Jan 18 2017 10:02 pm

@Al_HikesAZ

Good thing the executive branch has no authority to interpret legislation. Does no one take social studies anymore? (insert Betsy DeVos joke here)
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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by flagscott » Jan 19 2017 6:47 am

Al_HikesAZ wrote:Looks like we will soon know.http://www.sltrib.com/...
Interior nominee: President has power to amend, maybe remove, monument designation
There's no law allowing a monument to be "un-designated." Here's the full text of the Antiquities Act for those interested (which is probably just me): https://www.nps.gov/history/local-law/anti1906.htm

Even the Republican federal judges won't be able to come up with a legislative basis for overturning existing monuments. Zinke is just going to create a lot of legal fees for environmental law firms.

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Re: Bears Ears National Monument

Post by Tough_Boots » Jan 19 2017 7:52 am

flagscott wrote:Zinke is just going to create a lot of legal fees for environmental law firms.
I think Zinke was just pandering during his nomination hearing since he made these comments while being grilled by a Utah senator. Looking at Zinke's history, he's not at all in line with that "states reclaiming federal land" garbage that Utah has been pushing for the last few years-- and that's what this pressure from Utah is really all about.
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