Tonto NF and Land Management

[FOTG]

Am I the only one who is disappointed in our land managers at Tonto NF over the last few years?

[Jim]

Emotion driven emotional cults that cherry pick what they use as science, and also reject as science, and rely on "lived experience" over statistics or hard empirical evidence have become the norm in society. Horsey lovers are just another example. Systemic Horse oppression would be their message if you or the Tonto wanted to remove the herd, or cull them. They are pets, they are a destructive invasive exotic animal, and they need to be completely eradicated if they are not culled to less than 50. Will any of that happen? No. If you want something to happen, you have to quietly do it yourself, but good luck with those numbers.

We have a great chance of the Tonto having another 100,000 acre fire in mostly exotic grass in the next 5 years than any management on these pets being boarded on public land.

[chumley]

The Ancha will burn next. From Roosevelt to Cherry Creek and everything in between. Include all of Hellsgate because it's too rugged to consider fighting it there. Only Pleasant Valley/Young will be spared. Because that's the only thing they care about.

[Jim]

@chumley
I thought a lot of it already did, but it seems to be the only area of the Tonto that has not recently hosted a fire, is far from most development, and would be managed as you say. The rim is too developed, I believe.

Really, the area around Aztec Peak could use another burn, but it needs active management to re-establish the historical conifer over grass forest, and to remove the heavy infestation of locust. They also need to cull the probably very tasty, apple fed elk herd that inhabits the area below Aztec. Releasing hungry bears isn't doing the job!

[FOTG]

@chumley God I wish I could just dismiss this as snark

[nonot]

@nonot
Tonto NF closed the area around Water Wheel after the flood for the remainder of the summer monsoon due to potential danger to the public. But not before it. That action did not require any gauges, flashing lights, sirens, or any other infrastructure/shooting targets. Only an understanding of the situation on the ground and the potential risks.

FWIW, I do not personally support public safety closures and I wish the general public could use the data available to make safe decisions for their own well-being.

Which does not change the sequence of actions taken by TNF.

Thanks for the explanation. In general I dislike government agencies enacting mass closures to "protect people from themselves". In this case, preventing access due to the potential of death if people were swimming during the rain. So I would say I disagree with the Tonto FS enacting the closure. But with the dumbing down of America, I could see how people feel the opposite, and that it should be done sooner. I wonder now if that means the entire Superstitions/Four Peaks area must remain closed for a period of 5-10 years due to the potential for flash floods there due to the fires, and the fact that the desert recovers more slowly from fires than pine forests. Be careful what you ask for folks, you just might get it.

[wildwesthikes]

I would just be happy if Tonto NF updated their website to reflect current closure orders & restrictions. It's not much to ask.

EDIT: Lol an hour after I posted this the site is finally updated with new closures. But the links to the orders and maps are disorganized and some of them are for the wrong places. This is the not the first time I've seen this either. I'm in awe.

In case you're having trouble with their site here is the map of the closure.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DO ... 792706.pdf

[CannondaleKid]

The Ancha will burn next.

Getting close... on our drive down from Happy Jack today we saw a huge plume of smoke in the area just north of Picture Mountain, so when we got home I checked and sure enough there's a fire in the Chalk Mountain/Skunk Tank Canyon area.
Inciweb = "Hidden Fire"
IMO, Chalk or Skunk Tank may have been a more appropriate name,
(Having bagged Chalk Mountain, Skunk Tank Ridge and hiked upper Gun Creek I'm familiar with the area)

[CannondaleKid]

Releasing hungry bears isn't doing the job!

AFAIK, black bears aren't carnivores...

[CannondaleKid]

As far as the lack of law enforcement at recreation sites, that I don't agree with but you know that's usually a funding issue.

Yup, pretty much a funding, and thus lack of manpower issue.
I know three Tonto NF Mesa District LEO's (two I know personally) and the normal staffing is for only two rangers on duty at a time for ALL of the Mesa District.
It's pretty tough to cover just the Rec sites let alone other areas like Bulldog,The Rolls, & Sycamore Creek OHV areas. LEO's simply cannot be in more than one place at a time. More than once I've contacted them about serious issues (twice about campfires during bans) in the Sycamore Creek area but the closest LEO was dealing with some folks at Canyon Lake so it was simply not possible to respond in a timely manner.
And yes, they DO enforce the laws... at least a half-dozen times I've witnessed LEO's issuing citations to lawbreakers in Bulldog and The Rolls.

[CannondaleKid]

complicit in the land swap that will lead to the destruction of Oak Flat

Pretty sure most of the blame should placed on the doorstep of the politicians... Senators & Representatives (some now former lawmakers, some no longer alive) who received plenty of $ from lobbyists.
Resolution Copper didn't spend $10 million over 10+ years NOT to get their way.
Once the ball started rolling, how did it become the job of Tonto NF to stop it?
Politics and MONEY rule over rational thinking.

[chumley]

News flash!