What are the "Rules" of the (Forest) Road?

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

I drove on a Forest Road for my first time ever. (FR 25.) It's very narrow at places - single lane.

What are the "Rules" if one vehicle encounters another vehicle going the opposite direction?

(Almost happened to me. A jeep drove up the trailhead, looking for a campsite. If I had left a minute earlier, we would have met nose to nose.)

It seems to me that the vehicle that is going uphill should yield (that is, drive downhill in Reverse) to the vehicle going downhill, since it's extremely difficult to power up a hill in Reverse. (And even if that's not correct, the engine will overheat since air won't flow right into the radiator when going backward. (Ask me how I know.))

OTOH, if it's a Hairpin, then it might not be possible for the uphill going vehicle to turn in Reverse.

Or what if there's no discernable up and down?

[Alston_Neal]

Up hill has right of way. Unless it doesn't work out that way.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@Alston_Neal
Tnx. I'm surprised.

Is there some logic for this Rule?

[nonot]

Vehicles going uphill are fighting gravity and deserve the right of way to carry forward their momentum. That said, many people don't know the rules of the road, so don't expect the downhill person to yield, which is why Alston used his phrasing.

However, I also encourage the rule that says if you know you are driving on a road where vehicles have difficulty passing, you become aware that you will have to soon pass another vehicle, start looking for somewhere you can pull off to the side and just pull off there and wait (even if you give up your right of way). If you end up with the downhill vehicle needing to back up a hundred yards until a passing spot is found, that doesn't help anyone and takes a lot longer. And if you are on the other side of the coin and see the oncoming vehicle pull off in advance, just slowly pass them and wave a thank you.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@nonot
Hmm... but the vehicle headed downhill is also fighting gravity when trying to go in Reverse. And arguably working harder to do it in Reverse than the uphill vehicle, which can just "coast" backward downhill.

And I don't know if the gearing in a 4x4 works as well in Reverse as it does going Forward. And there's the radiator overheating problem I mentioned before, especially when making power to go uphill backward.

But if that's the Rule, I can't change it.

After seeing the Jeep, I started to make mental notes of where pull off places were in case someone had to drive in Reverse to one.

On another note, it seems that drivers drive WAY too fast on that road, never expecting to see another vehicle. One guy went by opposite direction, wider part of the road, doing about 25.

I expect that, on the narrow hairpins, since drivers are trying to keep their forward momentum going uphill, they might be driving faster than they should. I wonder how many accidents there are?

(I was fine in first gear, 4x4 and didn't need momentum. (Except possibly crossing the creeks.) And this Blazer has 4x4 Low, which I didnt' need to use. It is amazing slow in 4x4 Low. But also delivers loads of torque.)

[nonot]

The downhill vehicle has no uphill momentum. The situation is undesirable, generally one person or the other will pull to the side before you get nose to nose on a single lane road. Unless you are at a blind corner in which case someone has to back up.

I have seen you post that your radiator is overheating and brake lines are malfunctioning, so it sounds like you are suffering vehicle maintenance issues...or lack of maintenance issues more likely.

Any modern vehicle designed for off roading will be able to pull uphill at most common road inclines indefinitely (assuming correct gearing, a reasonable pace, and that you are not towing a house.) If not, either the vehicle is not designed correctly (too small a radiator - common problem in 80s and early 90s vehicles) or has a cooling problem. If you floor it at top gear on 30 degree slopes...stop doing that, if you are lugging a giant trailer, then you should consider upgrading to a towing package (which adds a radiator.)

[Alston_Neal]

@nonot
Well said. No matter what age you are, alone or with your loved ones your vehicle or your long range hiking/survival skills better be intact.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

Regarding the radiator - I was referring to when I was younger and used to drive in reverse at about 20 mph for a while. No airflow through a radiator, regardless of how well it's working will cause over heating.

In normal usage, mine is fine. Flushed it out last year, replaced the water pump this year.

Regarding the brakes - upon inspection, it was a rear (drum) brake seal that blew. Which I don't understand, since there is no flexing in a drum brake. But I suppose the seal was old (30 years) and the vibration of the road caused it to fail.

The reason that I thought it was a front brake problem is because the front half of the master cylinder reservoir was empty when I looked at it after the fact.

I now theorize that what happened is 1) the rear brake blew and fluid started leaving from the rear half of the master cylinder resevoir. 2) Shortly thereafter, as I was going uphill, brake fluid from the front half of the reservoir spilled over in to the rear half. 3) This caused the front half to show almost empty, leaving me to think that I had blown a front cylinder.

In any event, after I repair the rear seal, I will replace the front flexible lines prophylactically.

[chumley]

I find that courtesy works well. Assess the situation you are in. Wave or signal the other driver of your intentions based on your astute observations as a driver. Proceed with caution, and continue to enjoy your drive after passing the other vehicle.

Unrelated courtesy. Forests have trees. Forrests have a box of chocolates.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@chumley
Thanks for the correction. (I know better. My old age is showing.)

[xsproutx]

it seems that drivers drive WAY too fast on that road, never expecting to see another vehicle. One guy went by opposite direction, wider part of the road, doing about 25.

On this note... You may feel 25 is too fast on a road based on your opinion/skill/vehicle/comfort level, but someone else may have done that road dozens of times at 25mph perfectly safe. Obviously, I hope they're being safe but as another rule, if someone is coming up behind you going faster than you, don't play a civilian cop, just get off to the side and let them pass.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@xsproutx
You're correct, and I don't care how fast someone is going when the road is wide enough for two. And I'm happy to move off to the side to let them pass.

My concern is too fast from the perspective of "You can't see who's coming around a hairpin."

Even if both vehicles are traveling at 5 mph around a hairpin, it seems that it would be hard not to collide when you can't see the other guy until the last second. More so if the ground is crumbly. (Poor braking action.)

In aircraft, we used to teach that you didn't taxi faster than you could walk. (Because in the Old Days, most small aircraft didn't have brakes.) But even with brakes, it's hard to get into trouble moving slow rather than fast.

I thought about blowing my horn before coming around a hairpin, like some Delivery Truck drivers do. But since most everyone I saw had their windows up, I don't know if they would hear me.

I'm thinking about strapping a fishing pole horizontally to the front of my Blazer to make a flag like the AT guys use to make them visible when coming up a sand dune.

Actually, I suppose it would be easier to buy a flexible pole that the AT guys use.

[big_load]

On Forest Roads like anywhere else, there are plenty of yahoos who are still alive only due to the forbearance of others.

[xsproutx]

My concern is too fast from the perspective of "You can't see who's coming around a hairpin."

Yeh, I hear you and everyone here has probably had more than a few close calls in those scenarios. Like many things in life, you can only control what you control

[LindaAnn]

I think you’re spending a lot of time worrying about every potential problem that could come up while hiking and driving. It’s good to be prepared, but at some point, you have to just go and do, because everything will likely turn out just fine.

I drive a fair amount of forest roads, and getting around vehicles on a one lane road works out just fine. Worrying about it ahead of time doesn’t do any good. Yield to the uphill, but more often, it seems like whoever has a better spot to get out of the way does so. Or whoever values their vehicle more is likely the first to yield. People aren’t colliding into each other very often on hairpin turns. How do I know this? A — because I’ve never seen it/heard about it being a problem. and B — because if it was happening, there would be vehicle debris scattered at these turns, which there’s not.

Just go enjoy the outdoors. Use common sense, but realize there is not a disaster waiting for you at every opportunity. You simply cannot prepare for every potential issue, and it’s a waste of time and energy trying to do so.

[azbackpackr]

@TooOld2HikeQ
Are you over 70? You don't get "geezer" status unless you are, I'm told. I'll be 70 in two days, and plan on enjoying the unfolding of my geezerness. My friend, Dale Sanders, hiked the Appalachian Trail at 82, and paddled the whole Mississippi at 87. I look up to his supreme geezerness.

[big_load]

@azbackpackr
Has it been that long since your last milestone birthday? Time sure does fly.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@LindaAnn
It comes from being a pilot, constantly thinking about where I'll land if the engine quits. Carrying a survival kit in the plane in case it quits in the high country and I have to spend a night below freezing, when it was 65 in the Valley. (You would be surprised how many people take off in shorts from Phx to Sedona, never thinking about what would happen if they had to spend a night up north.) Always thinking about "What If's," and always having a Plan B.

And as for using Common Sense: Unfortunately I'm a product of the public school system, which sucked all the Common Sense out of my head starting about the 3rd grade. I've spent the rest of my life trying to get it back.(With only limited success.)

[RedRoxx44]

Depends too on vehicle and driver capability. I was going uphill on the Flint trail and encountered a driver in a less capable SUV coming down so I sidehilled the Jeep to let her get by. If it's a short section that is too narrow sometimes I will walk it to make sure. Lippincott road in Death Valley is one I really study for traffic as the upper portion cut into the cliff side does not allow for passing and would be treacherous for backing up without a spotter. There's another road in the Dripping Springs that a short way I will always walk if I have not been on it recently, not necessarily for vehicles but washouts and rock fall. It has one section that to get out of your vehicle you have to go out the window and scramble along the cliff face and your vehicle. The passenger has to hang on for dear life to the vehicle and creep around it with heels hanging off into space. Due to the contouring there is also no safe way to back up.

[rcorfman]

I'm with @LindaAnn on this. This really isn't something to spend time worrying about. As others have mentioned, just you or the approaching driver should just pull over at the most convenient spot. Concerning hairpin turns, most are wider since vehicles need room to turn so they really aren't a big deal. Me personally, I've never had to back up nor has an approaching driver. There have been plenty of places where that would have been tough, but just keep an eye out for when that situation may arise. Now quit fretting and get out there and do the thing!