Grand Canyon Lodge North Rim, Dragon Bravo expansion

[azbackpackr]

(July 27 Edit, changed headline to reflect development of fire.)
Grand Canyon Lodge at North Rim burned last night, and over the last 24 hours also the visitor center, cabins, Administration center, backpacking permit office, and numerous employee houses were burned. I heard that the mules survived and that nobody died. It'll be all over the news.
https://inciweb.wildfire.gov/incident-i ... bravo-fire

[chumley]

@azbackpackr besides being a crushingly tragic and sad reality, it is mind-boggling to put together the timeline of events and decisions, planning, and preparedness under which this could EVER have happened.

[Grimey]

That is just sad beyond words.

[big_load]

Oh no! I'm glad I finally got to see the North Rim Lodge on a backpacking trip last October. I was hoping to go back again this fall, too.

[azbackpackr]

I doubt I will ever go back there.

[CannondaleKid]

I'm glad I finally got to see the North Rim Lodge

My one and only visit was last September... glad I got to see it at least once.

[cactuscat]

I was watching the retardant drops from the South Rim today, knowing that the lodge and pretty much everything else had already burned. Just devastating.
Also, the South Rim will probably be closing within a couple days because there won't be any water.

[azbackpackr]

@cactuscat
Whoa? really? No water? Well, that would be an interesting development. I know the water comes from Roaring Springs. What will cut it off? Evidence, please. Where did you hear this?

[Jim]

I'm more interested in the water treatment facility. The S Rim sewage facility was pretty industrial and wide open with lots of defensible space around it. It's interesting too, that chlorine gas was leaked, and at a large enough amount to evacuate a huge area, and post warnings about chlorine smell on the Reservation. How much gas escaped, and what exactly are they doing at the water plant to have that much chlorine gas?

[azbackpackr]

@Jim
Honestly have no idea how a water treatment plant works.

[cactuscat]

@azbackpackr
I was talking with an employee up there today and she said that's what they were expecting. I don't know details, but anything seems possible at this point! I hope she's wrong.

[Jim]

@azbackpackr
I didn't quite mean literally. Chlorine is used to kill microbes in the water. I just meant that it is interesting the gas was released and in such a quantity to evacuate such large areas, and issue a warning for the reservation. The lodge? Meh. Moving on....

[Grimey]

I wouldn't be terribly shocked if there's a water issue soon at the South Rim. The fire looks to have gotten down into Roaring Springs Canyon. Didn't quite make it to the pumphouse as far as I can tell, thankfully, at least for now. I assume the power for the pumphouse comes from the North Rim? Hopefully I'm wrong but the whole trans canyon water system seems pretty fragile.


In other news, the White Sage Fire seems to be creeping southward, appears to have reached 89A east of Jacob Lake.

[cactuscat]

From an NPS firefighter buddy who was working on the Dragon Bravo fire -
"Im here on the ground, we were about to contain it by burning off the roads but lost our resources to the White Sage fire and didn't have enough personnel, damn anyone that says this was prescribed. We plan these things based on long term forecasts, which for the past 1000 years show monsoon rains this time of year... theres no rain even though it should be raining by now"

[azbackpackr]

@cactuscat
Jason?

[Jim]

If the South Rim has no water in a day or two, that would really demonstrate a complete failure of planning by NPS. It isn't like the old line didn't have frequent breaks, that didn't cause the entire system to fail. There is no reason that this fire should cause the water system to fail, not from the fire, or at this point. There should have been defensible space maintained around any critical infrastructure, and the pump houses shouldn't be made from wood. Concrete, metal, all manner of non-flammable building materials exist.

I know people have really short and selective memories, but 2009 happened. It's only July 14, today. Problem is, there are a lot of people that wear the badge, but they don't all know what they're talking about. You all know this. Call a FS front desk and get plentiful misinformation about something you are very familiar with. I recently spoke to some local high up wildfire guys in this state. I got conflicting information about something fairly basic.

[azbackpackr]

@Jim
The water line has been under intensive reconstruction for the past couple of years, necessitating trail closures, etc. I don't know in what way that is affected by the fire.

I just saw a post elsewhere from the middle of the night (a few hours ago) that the fire has burned downhill, below the Coconino.

[Jim]

@azbackpackr
Right, but the fire shouldn't be doing anything to the water system, at this point, which would cause the S Rim to close or have no water at all. Even with the routine interruptions that caused some services to be suspended to conserve water, there was water in storage on the S Rim.

The fear mongering is just that, at this point, and shows a lack of critical thinking along with a willingness to believe the most outlandish of scenarios. Let's say, for some freak reason, there really was no water coming from the N Rim for weeks. Yes, that would affect showers and high use areas, but the economic impact of the GCNP is such that a city like Flagstaff should be willing to sell water to the NPS so it can be trucked in. Which is worth more? A 10,000 gallon water shipment, or all the unfilled hotel rooms that would result from GCNP closing? Not hard to figure out.

BTW, I don't know the plan for that water system improvement, but if NPS was smart, they would construct a reservoir at the S. Rim. Virtually every major city has one. The sheer level of stupidity for infrastructure projects that routinely fail, is unbelievable. Oh! Oh! The pipeline broke, we have to close Oh! Whoa is us. -proverbial NPS employee. Get real. Build a covered substantial sized untreated water reservoir, like every other city of high use seems to do, and have a safety net. Why is that so hard to do?

For reference, 1 acre foot is over 325,000 gallons. So, if you had a 1/4 acre tank or reservoir, it doesn't even need to be that high or deep to store 1,000,000 gallons.

[azbackpackr]

@Jim
The water has been shut off before, as recently as last August, in fact. They had to cancel hotel reservations, and I think they brought in porta potties or something.

[Jim]

@azbackpackr
There was zero water at the South Rim? As in, the entire system was totally dry? No drinking water for the village residents, no ability to wash hands at the clinic? There is a big difference between water being "shut off" electively to conserve the supply from 'we have no water at all'.

I've postponed trips as recently as 2022 or 2023 due to restrictions that closed the campers services and showers. They've had days of restrictions, and yeah, great, they had port-o-potties which proves my point. They aren't closing. Fear and hysteria are just that.