Grand Canyon Lodge North Rim, Dragon Bravo expansion

[azbackpackr]

(July 27 Edit, changed headline to reflect development of fire.)
Grand Canyon Lodge at North Rim burned last night, and over the last 24 hours also the visitor center, cabins, Administration center, backpacking permit office, and numerous employee houses were burned. I heard that the mules survived and that nobody died. It'll be all over the news.
https://inciweb.wildfire.gov/incident-i ... bravo-fire

[chumley]

@FOTG I heard that STRAVA is going to underwrite the entire reconstruction effort because without any R2R hikers their platform will lose half of its users.

[Grimey]

@FOTG
Unfortunately I fear you may be right. I always stop at the Jacob Lake Inn when going to the North Rim. It's a neat place, cool history, and of course I like to support them, but it's not a destination per se. If the North Rim closes for a couple years I - and I suspect thousands of others like me - won't be heading that way.

Just a sad situation. Hope they make it.

[ShatteredArm]

Grimey
More often than not, when I headed up there, I didn't even go to the main North Rim area. I've been to Saddle Mountain/Nankoweap TH, North Canyon, Swamp Point, Point Sublime, Tapeats amphitheater in the past 5-10 years, but only stopped by the tourist area once or twice.

I would, of course, expect tourism to crater, but to suggest that there's no reason to go up there because facilities have been destroyed is insane.

[chumley]

@ShatteredArm
There's also a very, very healthy population of hunters that visit the Kaibab Plateau and that won't change. But while there will still be visitors who need to get gas and food, or spend a night at the inn, I have to believe that the percentage of Jacob Lake's business that is derived from "other" users vs. "national park drive-by tourists" has to be less than half. I doubt that running that Inn is a hugely profitable endeavor to begin with, so any meaningful drop in visitation is likely to put a strain on their ability to operate. And I think it's safe to say that there will indeed be a statistically significant drop in business there.

It will likely operate again whenever regular operations return to the the park, but I wonder if the current owners will be able to ride out the downtime, or if it will be a new investor later on. Or maybe the costs will simply be too high for such remote location with a short season.

[Grimey]

Nobody suggested that there was "no reason to go up there". Good Lord.

[Jim]

Would NPS lands at the north rim be accessible to the public if the north rim is closed officially for the rest of the season, or for a year or two during any reconstruction? In theory they would, but maybe the NPS wouldn't allow access to prevent theft or vandalism at the village, and just keep the park closed so that they don't need to have policing/rangers.

[big_load]

Would NPS lands at the north rim be accessible to the public if the north rim is closed officially for the rest of the season, or for a year or two during any reconstruction? In theory they would, but maybe the NPS wouldn't allow access to prevent theft or vandalism at the village, and just keep the park closed so that they don't need to have policing/rangers.

That's what I'm worried about - would it affect backcountry permits outside the burn area?

[Grimey]

Good questions. I could see them closing access to the North Rim NPS land entirely for a time, while they assess damage and rebuild infrastructure. I am guessing similar things have happened at other National Parks that might give us a clue? The North Rim is somewhat unique though in its remoteness, I think a lot will depend on how badly damaged the admin and water treatment stuff is. If they can't house rangers and other staff properly, they'll likely close it, I would think.

[SuperstitionGuy]

If they can't house rangers and other staff properly,

United States Forestry personal can't sleep and surive as we do? Heaven forbid!

[Grimey]

@SuperstitionGuy
Well we're really talking about National Park Service personnel, not USFS personnel, I heard they have higher living standards. Looks like they had a water treatment facility and a number of administrative buildings that presumably at least some of them are for the purpose of supporting the seasonal NPS people living at the North Rim? From the damage assessment that Chumley posted, looks like a number of those were damaged or destroyed.

Anyway, I have no idea how you sleep and survive, so it's hard to say if NPS people are capable of doing so.

[Jim]

It's not simply a question of comfort and convenience, the NPS could do what they did at Bryce Canyon when I was last there. They closed trails which were completely unaffected by trailhead construction, miles from the trailhead at a junction with trails in the amphitheatre of the park, just to keep people away from the affected area. Lowest common denominator type of thing.

When you hedge like that, you just close all sorts of things that really are not affected so you don't need to bother with enforcement at the location. Not only could all of the North Rim NPS access points be closed, but the North Kaibab trail could be closed just north of Phantom Ranch, as a result. For years. It's closed now.

NPS likes to collect fees, and it will be far easier to just lock all the gates to keep out the riff raff than to issue a permit for Powell Plateau. That's my thoughts on access when the gate house is closed. I have no direct experience with the area off season, but welcome stories about access when the park gate was closed.

Maybe workers can stay at Jacob Lake? Others may be able to stay in the unburned campground, once water is available if that is down. In an RV or travel trailer , not a tent.

Actually, this could be a rare opportunity for Jacob Lake, as ADOT could keep AZ 67 open all winter, or as long as possible if a bad winter, if construction is ongoing. Tourists being less incentivized to be at the North Rim than construction crews. It's a possibility.

[chumley]

One thing to keep in mind is that GRCA already has a well-established management system in place for operating the north rim while also having its facilities closed to visitors. It happens every year. There is a basic level of staff on hand all while hikers continue to use the North Kaibab Trail and access other park trailheads via USFS lands.

[ShatteredArm]

Nobody suggested that there was "no reason to go up there". Good Lord.

If the North Rim closes for a couple years I - and I suspect thousands of others like me - won't be heading that way.

[ShatteredArm]

It will likely operate again whenever regular operations return to the the park, but I wonder if the current owners will be able to ride out the downtime, or if it will be a new investor later on. Or maybe the costs will simply be too high for such remote location with a short season.

They already do operate the Inn while the park is closed. Presumably, they're not doing so at a loss. I would suspect that at the very least, they'd be running very scaled back operations, but depending on their financials (basically, how much debt they have), they might be able to ride it out into perpetuity.

I think the Kaibab Lodge and the North Rim Country Store will be much more at risk.

[shelby147]

@Jim
The map is the fire history layer on CalTopo. Very interesting to peruse!

[Jim]

@shelby147
Thanks. It is interesting, but I wonder where they get the data. It's basically a start, and probably best for places like GCNP, or maybe the Gila Wilderness. It seems to have mostly if not entirely Federal NPS or FS data, but lacks prescribed fire and isn't accurate in Florida or New Jersey. None on the Coconino prescribed fires around the Peaks (like the Pete 1 or 2) are present. Plus, there are many south of the airport, too.

There is nothing from military bases like Dix-McGuire or Warren Grove in NJ (which burn often on the ranges), and the Ocala NF lacks wildfires in the longleaf islands (Riverside Island north of Lake Kerr) I recall from 2003. In Florida, it has no wildfires on the state forests (and of course no prescribed fires). Lots and lots of non-federal lands in Florida have an extensive wildfire history, some very large during the big years.

Then, the state lands and private lands in NJ have no represented history. That is a shame, but data isn't being shared if it exists. Lots and lots of large historic and recent fire history in the southern part of the state.

Still, thank you, and it is interesting.

[azbackpackr]

Several acquaintances of mine have had their fall backpacking permits canceled. N Bass, Kanab-Deer Creek, Indian Hollow.

[big_load]

Several acquaintances of mine have had their fall backpacking permits canceled. N Bass, Kanab-Deer Creek, Indian Hollow.

That's what I was afraid of.

[shelby147]

N Bass, Kanab-Deer Creek, Indian Hollow

Before we get too worried about fall permit cancellations, I'll point out this could have been some staffer at rec dot gov who thought the closure of hwy 67 and the lodge area means all hiking access on the North Rim is closed. I'm sure the BIC is inundated with emails about closures on top of potential emergency duties, so I'd also hold off on contacting them about things still weeks-months away.

[ShatteredArm]

@shelby147
It is currently closed by virtue of the fact that the National Forest is closed, but I would assume that the closure area should be reduced to just the burn perimeters once the fires are out. I can see N Bass permits being canceled if the NPS intends to maintain their current closure area, however.