Wilderness Aid Ethics

[Jeffshadows]

Having seen some of us, myself included, dance around this topic on recent threads, I though maybe we could talk about it openly. There's a lot of discussion going on in the outdoor community right now about this topic, so it seems timely to talk about it here on HAZ. Not all that long ago, there was a big controversy surrounding the incidents on Hood and the airing on Discovery's "Everest: Beyond the Limit" of a number of individuals passing by a down climber who was clearly circling the drain. You had right-wing mouthpieces talking about banning winter mountaineering on Hood ( ) and every soccer mom in America chiming in with her unsolicited opinion about "what should have happened." I was at the SH Gear Swap this last weekend listening to two guys argue about a rescue near the Grand Canyon and how "stupid" the lady was that got herself into that situation. Something about how she wasn't qualified to be climbing some route and deserved what she got. Nice sentiment.

I've also noticed a lot of threads on HAZ about rescues, lately. It sounds like a couple of you guys passed by part of this most recent party and probably realized something was wrong. I've been there, myself. Two stories that stand out: I was on Windy Point one afternoon about ten years ago when a guy rigged his rappel incorrectly and slipped down his rope onto the bedrock below while his buddies stood around shouting profanities and "What do we do?!" I watched helplessly from across the canyon shouting: "Don't move him" as they ran down and made it worse by sitting him up and making futile attempts to lift and fireman carry him back up the ridge. Two years ago I was coming down Esperero in the late summer afternoon when I encountered a young female with second-degree sunburn to her upper shoulders and arms cowering under a tree in Bird Canyon clad in only a spaghetti-strap tank top and skimpy shorts and sandals. No water, no cell phone, no clue. I offered her water and asked her if I could walk her back out to the Ranger station at Sabino and she screamed: "The last thing I need is more help from a man!" at me and stumbled off back into Esperero. When I got to the entrance of Sabino, there were a bunch of BLM wildland fire fighters and medics there for training, and they went after her.

These two situations still bother me. Ten years ago I only had the WFR training, but it should have been enough to tell me that I needed to go hold that fallen ding-dong's spine inline until the pros got there...or at least stop his buddies from making a bad situation worse. When I ran into that girl in Sabino, all I could think is: "Better leave her alone or she'll sue." This is really a shame. I'm actually afraid to help people I encounter who really need it because there's that lingering fear that the old Good Samaritan law will be a little too weak in that case. What's more, I think it truly is pretentious and presumptuous to stop someone and tell them they are "under-equipped" or "Don't appear to know what they're doing," even if they are putting their own safety at risk. After all, it's their life, right? Who am I to say that some frat boy shouldn't try to hike to Mt. Kimball on July afternoon in 105F heat with no shirt, little water, and basketball shorts/shoes? I can only hope that he has the good sense to turn around when he realizes he bit off more than he can chew.

Anyway, I wanted to see how some of the rest of you feel about this whole thing.

[te_wa]

The last thing I need is more help from a man!

its ok, ma'am, I used to be a woman...

seriously, Im not judging someone in danger by their lack of experience, or clothing choices, as some of us know even experience backcountry specialists make ill decisions. I have been "misplaced" for a day or two. Dehydration, hypoglycemia really hit fast and cloud a clear mind. Fortunatley, I have never let panic take me over the edge. But, even the professionals and well trained guides get into situations, that is why even they die as a result of poor judgement.

I suppose there is a good reason why there are disclaimers and prefaces outlining the basic (or minimal) equipment and skills needed to be a hiker. Every guidebook has 'em. ;)

[Jeffshadows]

I doubt she had ever read a guide. Which is too bad, one of the better one for this area was written by a woman!!

[RedRoxx44]

On SP, a hot topic is the terrible death of a climbing quide on Aconagua ( sp?) that is on video. It was released on Youtube by someone, perhaps family members. More facts and stories are coming out but what you see are some "rescuers" standing around and conversing, trying to get this poor guy to stand up, cursing him, dragging him a little by a rope, then leaving him to die, and the last shot shows him laying in the snow alone. The rescue attempt was videotaped per Argentina law.
His experience and credentials have been called into question, as well as summit conditions, difficulty of rescue on a high peak, etc.
However, I watched it and just felt sickened, and sorry for that poor man, whether he should have been there or not.

[Jeffshadows]

I saw that...that was part of why I started this thread, actually. The two stories I shared were the "worst of the worst" of my experiences. I've run into folks in much milder states of distress, most of whom had help or were out of harm's way. I heard a story about a guy out in the Rincons sitting on a boulder nearing heat stroke and gasping for air as group after group passed right by without so much as a word. He was eventually helped by some equestrians. Everyone probably has a story or two to tell like this. Where's the middle ground?

[Grasshopper]

Where's the middle ground?

I think it truly is pretentious and presumptuous to stop someone and tell them they are "under-equipped" or "Don't appear to know what they're doing," even if they are putting their own safety at risk.

I'm not sure there is a "middle ground". I would sure hope that I would immediately stop and help anyone who obviously needed help or asked me for help, but to presume I must help by just passing by someone who appears to be "under-equipped" or in my quick deduction "in a risky situation", may be asking for more risk. From my first hand experience, it is kind-of like being lost and not wanting to accept/admit that you are lost which just gets you in deeper trouble. IF we could just see or understand our risk(s) before or when it was happening and then accept them and then stop and seek/ask for help this might eliminate many needed rescues..

[chumley]

I don't think there's a right answer. I'd go on a case-by-case basis as every situation is slightly different.

In a situation like the one you experienced with the sunburned girl, I think your approach made perfect sense. You established that an individual appeared to be in need of assistance, so you politely offered it. She refused. End of story. Sometimes you have to let people make their own stupid decisions, even if it kills them.

If however you encounter somebody who doesn't appear to be in trouble, but your experience leads you to believe that they may END UP in trouble, I think there's more of a gray area. I once encountered a family of 4 from Germany hiking to Havasupai around Labor Day. It was around 100° and mom, dad, and two kids around 10-12 were hiking and each was carrying a single 1-liter bottle of water. They were at the bottom of the switchbacks and asked us how much further it was to the village! Because they started the conversation, my friend and I each parted ways with some of our water knowing that they would be in a world of hurt very soon (they had about 7 miles to go, and already had signs of heat-related problems). Had they not started a conversation however, I wouldn't have felt the need to talk to them and inform them of their poor decision regarding water.

[big_load]

If someone appears to be in real trouble, I'll do whatever I think is necessary or possible to help. I have this nagging feeling about an older guy who was slightly behind us on the 4-pass loop in the Maroon Bells last year. He hadn't hiked in years and was huffing and puffing, but still making his miles by the end of the day, at least to the halfway point. He was gone from his camp there when we passed it, but we never saw him after that, and we surely would have passed him within an hour or two. I suspect he bailed out onto a trail that led mostly downhill and would have got him out in a day, but that trail ends up at a remote TH about 100 road miles from his car. There were several apparent SAR operations in progress the next day, but not in the area he seemed to have gone.

[hippiepunkpirate]

When I climbed Humphrey's in September I saw more people than I could count that were only equipped with a 12 oz bottle of water. I didn't waste my breath on any of them. It's just a classic example of human stupidity.

[Jeffshadows]

When I climbed Humphrey's in September I saw more people than I could count that were only equipped with a 12 oz bottle of water. I didn't waste my breath on any of them. It's just a classic example of human stupidity.

Yea, the "gym bottle"...that seems to be one of the biggest "dumb things" I see folks doing here, as well. Especially in the summer...

[Sun_Ray]

I also have had the feeling of "should I offer help"? Of course it's when the person is in the grey area and youre not sure. When I'm sure I always ask. I have a general conversation with the person to help me determine there state of mine, experience level, gain some trust and offer what I think they need. I'm especially careful and make the extra effort to ask if they need help when we are in wilderness area and there are not many other folks on the trail.

On my rim to rim in the GC we came across a ranger who looked square into our eyes and asked "how are you doing?" Her seriousness and body language told me she really meant it and was not using the common greeting. She went on to ask what time we started in the AM, had we hiked the canyon before, what trail were we going to use on the way up (south side). I was totally OK with the discussion and I must admit it made me thing about each our answers.

On another GC hike to Phantom Ranch on the So. Kaibab my wife and I kept coming across a single women in her late 70's or 80's. We kept seeing each other as she or we stopped for water, rest or to take pictures so she was hiking at our pace. About 3/4 of the way down we began to pull away from her and I had to question myself if she was OK as it was getting hot and it was about 2PM in September. Near Phantom ranch a rescue team of 2 rangers was headed up the trail and asking if we had seen an older women by herself. She had gotten in trouble. I questioned myself wondering if there was something I should have noticed. I'm OK with my actions on this one, but really felt bad and thinking about it now see how important it must have been as I'm recalling and 'seeing' this lady very clearly as I write this.

My thought is that we as hikers have a common bond and while we may be out there to 'get away from it all' I'd help someone in a minute and hope and believe others will help me.

[PaleoRob]

Sun Ray, sounds like you did what you could with that lady. If there were no signs she was in trouble until you stopped seeing here, there was nothing you could do except point those rangers in the right direction.

In my early hiking days when I was poorly prepared for some of my hikes, I would occasionally be asked if things were going well. It was that obvious how much of a n00b I was!
Nowadays most of my hiking time is either short stuff near home (HSB, Page Rim Trail, etc.) or way out in the backcountry where I'm unlikely to run into anyone unless they're pretty dedicated as well. I would absolutely offer assistance if I thought it was needed and would not endanger more people (not just myself, but any potential extrasitutaional rescuers like NPS, etc.). In a case like that I would offer what I could and then book it to the nearest place where competent aid was available, even if many hours away.

[Jim]

When I climbed Humphrey's in September I saw more people than I could count that were only equipped with a 12 oz bottle of water. I didn't waste my breath on any of them. It's just a classic example of human stupidity.

Yea, the "gym bottle"...that seems to be one of the biggest "dumb things" I see folks doing here, as well. Especially in the summer...

Well, how big is the "gym bottle"? I think myself and the other guy from Andover who did the Maroon Bells could do Humphrey just fine with a gym bottle. Its hard to tell how a person is going to do since it isn't always obvious that they might do something that they don't find all that challenging with little resources, but others may think it is the hardest thing ever.

I do carry 2 lites every time I go out. In summer with a fast turn around I might only drink 1.

Though, I think the shear numbers of the gym bottle climber suggests that they aren't prepared. I think I generally prefer the areas with lower visitation where you only encounter the hard core folks. Sadly, even in those spots I have met and even traveled with people who really were completely unprepared.

One place I would love to go is the Gila Wilderness. You get into that area you know you aren't finding folks who have no business being there. They'd be dead if they didn't.

[SuperstitionGuy]

These two situations still bother me. Ten years ago I only had the WFR training, but it should have been enough to tell me that I needed to go hold that fallen ding-dong's spine inline until the pros got there...or at least stop his buddies from making a bad situation worse.

For those of you reading this post that have no emergency medical training the WFR he is referring to is Wilderness First Responder which is a basic level of emergency medical training and certification. If your not interested in taking the class but would like to have access to the information just Goggle the subject as there is a lot of information online and you can also purchase manuals that cover the subject very well. Equipped with this information you may someday save yourself or a another poor sole as you encounter various emergency situations in the field. You may also just prevent a medical emergency by being so informed.

[big_load]

I have mixed feelings about the gym bottle crowd. Although unpreparedness is a pet peeve of mine, I've come to recognize that almost all people (if only subconsciously) seem to obey their limitations well enough to survive. I agree with Sun Ray that friendly conversation is a great way to assess the situation without being too intrusive or putting people on the defensive.

[azdesertfather]

In a situation like the one you experienced with the sunburned girl, I think your approach made perfect sense. You established that an individual appeared to be in need of assistance, so you politely offered it. She refused. End of story. Sometimes you have to let people make their own stupid decisions, even if it kills them.

I agree with you, chumley, for the most part on this. You can't parent people. Reflecting on what some of you shared with the situation in the Superstitions this past weekend, I honestly don't think I would have handled it much differently.

I would have just 2 different angles on this:
1. If I think the person(s) showing signs of something like heat stroke or hypothermia that causes confusion, agitation, disorientation, or strange behavior. In those situations I would immediately stop my plans and go report them so that they could receive the help they need, as I can't trust that they're capable of making clear decisions for themselves.
2. I have found that if I talk to people in such a way that shows them respect and doesn't make them feel like I'm there to rescue them (or make them thus look stupid), tell them "I've made plenty of mistakes myself" (and I have made a few, as we all have), then I'm basically first helping them save face. It's amazing how important saving face is for so many of us...and actually we GUYS are the worst!

But if someone is in the right state of mind and still wants to be stupid, I'll wish them all the best. "Sometimes" in those cases I will call and report it when I get into cell phone range, so at least SAR would have a little more info on where to start looking and what to look for.

[azbackpackr]

I'm also a WFR, but have had little occasion to use the info other than at the big mtn. bike races where I volunteer as a first aider. (Most of those folks, even when hurt and bleeding, are more worried about possible damage to their $5,000 bicycles than they are to themselves! ) However, of course I would offer assistance on the trail if I see someone who looks as though they need help. The suggestion that you offer it in such a gentle way so that the other person "saves face" is such a good one that I am going to pass it along to members of my search team when I get back up home to the White Mtns. again.

[Jeffshadows]

Many of the folks who wander the initial reaches of most trails armed with only a gym bottle of water are relatively harmless. They go out and look around and have their wilderness adventure for the month. Most never wander more than a mile or two in on the trail. One of the most prolific examples of this phenomenon is when you're coming down off Kimball on a busy day and the gym bottle crowd are all huffing and puffing around that first vista point asking: "How much further to Kimball" or "How much further to Linda Vista?" It's almost heartbreaking to tell them that they're only one and a half miles in. That usually puts the final nail in it, and they turn around. This seems to be the way it goes with most of those folks...they wander for a while and leave.

Since what I just described probably encompasses 75-80% of the visitors to our national parks and forests, they're essential to keeping those areas open for us enthusiasts by their visitation.

The ones that really worry me are the rarer variety. Every so often I'll be miles of climbing back in somewhere and be shocked to encounter someone who looks exhausted and is desperately clutching a map or guide book with a look of defeat painted all over their face. The last time this happened the guy asked if I knew where a spring was, and I told him that the nearest one that might actually have water that time of year was almost six miles away over a saddle and down a canyon. He was from Seattle and was completely taken aback by how fast the AZ heat drains fluid and energy from your body, even at elevation. It's situations like that where you basically have to abandon your plans and aid that person to safety, no questions asked.

The question for me still seems to be what to do with people who are just being stupid or reckless and are likely to get themselves hurt, but not likely to injure anyone else. I guess it's situation-dependent...

[RedRoxx44]

Even those who know better can be stupid but lucky. Cases in point--
Two hikers---ok I was one of them,--- are going down a canyon which drops quite a bit. One is an excellent climber, one is not. We come to a short drop into a pool. We have no tech gear or handline. My partner says, I can lower you a few feet then you can jump the rest. I point out if we both go down and can't get down the rest of the canyon how we gonna get out?? His answer--oh, we'll find a way. We also didn't have maps with us, nor much research. We argued a bit, then turned around, something I know he hates to do. Another trip we could visualize from across the rim the lower part of the canyon. Some big, shear looking drops.

Another time--two cavers--ok I was one of them--- it's a lazy day and plan A fell apart so we went to a little maze cave in the desert. My partner had been in on the discovery trip about 15 years earlier and had been back once since. We didn't have our normal gear and had two headlamps and a flashlight between us. So we went in and wandered around, I took pics. Then in a lower level I lost my light. Went out, no extra batteries. His light was getting faint, no extra batteries for it either. We had a little sort of climb out, I held my 99 cent store LED flashlight in my teeth to climb out. We got out and no kidding as he sat on the rock at the very top of the climb out his light went out too.

[writelots]

I think it is dependent upon the situation, and I think that kindly offering help may be all that we can or should do in many cases. I have had a couple of experiences in different places (Havasu and the GC mostly) where I end up "escorting" young people who have insufficient water, footwear or experience to get out of what they've gotten themselves into. In most cases, they probably would have survived, but I felt more comfortable hiking along with them and making sure they got out alright. (I'm always amazed, especially at the GC, how many teens I run into whose parents basically said "sure, hike down to the bottom, I'll be at the cafe"...) It's dangerous, though, for us to start to take personal responsibility for the safety of everyone else on the trail. Often times, these dangerous and uncomfortable experiences are what teach people to have respect for the wilderness.