To pack or not to pack?

[AZ_Hiker]

Hiking here in Arizona, I have found really different then the areas im use to, the northwest and the south. I have no proplems with the heat and spend a lot of time outdoors. but I find myself carrying a lot more gear then I ever did before. it just seems to me that there are lots more ways to get in to trouble here and therefor "to be on the safe side" more grear is needed.

so heres the question.. for an 8 mile hike.

do you plan for the worst? take everything you might need if you get hurt or cought out over night or

do you take your mule and a peanutbutter sandwhich and call it good?


the reason I ask is because I think I may be over working my self always planing for the worst. I have been doing all my hiking alone so I may be getting a little parinoid?

dont know.

[Trishness]

I'd put myself in that "tweener" category, depending on the time of year and location of the hike. I was only caught off guard once when hiking in the Supes in August and only brought 2 liters of water and went through all of it with a mile of trail left to go. Since that day (several years ago) I now always taken 3 liters of water plus some Propel or Gatorade as a backup. It's not only a safety blanket for me but I've often come across people who I've given up water for because they didn't bring enough. In addition to the water/*ade I always carry:

First Aid kit: including 3x4's, tape, Neosporin, Steri-Strips, bandaids, ace wrap, gloves, moleskin, benadryl, ASA, Ibuprofen plus several days of my RX meds, comb (for those pesky cholla), baby wipes.

Emergency kit: Space blanket, headlamp with extra batteries, lighter, waterproof matches, iodine tabs, multi-tool, rain jacket, whistle, cotton balls soaked in vaseline (firestarter) and pepper spray.

Food: Energy bars, beef jerky, powdered gookinade/powerade, honey, dried fruit. Tuna in flat packs and mayo in those take out packets. Salt too. Spork too

Extra socks! Dry feet are happy feet.

Compass and map...and a bandana. I always have a hat and sunscreen with me too.

While I'd like to be a minimalist, I'm just not. I usually will bring my water filter with me too.

I guess my day pack weighs in at around 12-15 pounds.

:mrgreen:

[AZHikr4444]

Hey Trish- I carry those cotton balls and pj too! Didn't we use those once down in Chevelon? Beats carryin' a big bag of fritos! Oh..well...maybe not....least we could eat those too!

I usually keep the raingear in the jeep now (ya know..helps to avoid those last minute Wal-mart trips in Payson!). But- I have not used it once! Just doesn't rain much when I'm out...hopefully I am jinxing myself..I kinda like a nice rain when hiking. Long as I'm not in a slot!

As far as those snakebit kits- I've heard many times that they are useless. I've even heard they can do more tissue damage..but..thats a whole other thread....

[big_load]

I usually keep the raingear in the jeep now (ya know..helps to avoid those last minute Wal-mart trips in Payson!).

I'm surprised by how much gear lives in my car, not just for trail use, but for everyday use as well. Rain gear is always in there. Compass, maps flashlight, first aid kit, etc. are too. Trekking poles are there in winter, since I often need them to get up my driveway on snowy/icy nights. I also carry a backpacking shovel for digging out in winter.

[SouthParkJubi]

I'd rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it! :-)

[kylemorgan]

I think it all depends on the hike. If it's somewhere I've been, I may try and stretch a small amount of supplies. If I haven't, I'll bring home a handfull of things I didn't use.

[imike]

Two Naglene bottles of lemonade, two bananas, one apple, notebook and pen, camera.... up to 12 miles. If the weather is cold or suspect: parka, pants, energy bar and gloves. If desiring more training, dumbells 10# to 40# weight plate

[azbackpackr]

Snakebite kit is useless, and will cause shock and tissue damage if you cut into yourself. And according to Wilderness Medical Associates, you really can't suck rattlesnake venom out with the little suction cups. They should stop making those things.

Sometimes I really over-pack but usually not. I carry a minimum first aid kit, windbreaker or raingear, food, water, lighter, etc.

In winter up here in the mtns I go for the gusto, though. Extra clothes, extra mittens, extra beanie hat, fire starter kit, etc., etc.

[desert spirit]

Snakebite kit is useless, and will cause shock and tissue damage if you cut into yourself. And according to Wilderness Medical Associates, you really can't suck rattlesnake venom out with the little suction cups. They should stop making those things.

What are you supposed to do instead? I hate it when I read "official" publications that say you're supposed to forget those old "remedies" and instead focus on immediately getting yourself to the ER. They also say not to exert yourself, cause it causes the venom to spread faster.

Well, that's fine if the snake nails me in my backyard, but what if I'm 10 or 20 miles up the trail, and the trailhead itself is an hour or more from the nearest ER?

[te_wa]

you have a safety window of +/- 8 hours
50% of bites are dry
positive outcome is in your favor

[azbackpackr]

If you can walk, you try to walk out. My friend who was bitten in the leg, only about 3 miles up the Finger Rock Trail, had to be helicoptered out. She said it was a Mojave rattler. She said she would not have been able to walk out (and she is one heck of a hiker) because the neurotoxin hit her immediately, causing numbness to the lips right away, and very soon, within less than 5 minutes, she was unable to sit or stand.

These bites affect people differently, and as Tewa said, a lot of bites don't contain venom, or not much venom. And there are different species of rattlesnakes, etc. etc. So one person's experience is not going to be the same as another's.

Many people do recommend the Sawyer Extractor, which is sold at REI. This equipment does NOT include instructions for any cutting of the bite area with a blade. Wilderness Medical Associates does recommend its use, or at least their 2006 book did recommend it. I am up for recert of my WFR in June, so can find out if they have revised this information in any significant way.

Those old cut-and-suck snakebite kits have been condemned by many first aid organizations since at least the late 1980's, maybe longer. This is why it is so disturbing that they are still on the market. The main problem is the cutting. It can cause the person to go into shock.

Anyway, if your kit is the Sawyer, that one is recommended, as far as I have heard.

[PaleoRob]

My 1st aid course I just took last week said that all the snakebite kits out there are basically junk and not to use them.

[Jeffshadows]

Here is the current consensus on snakes of concern in AZ:

Dress the wound the way you would dress any penetrating injury but avoid applying too much pressure. Remove rings, jewelry, or other constrictive items from the struck limb if it is a limb. Circle the area around the penetration that has swollen with a marker or pen and note the time that circle was drawn. Try to keep the limb below the level of the heart. Walk out only if necessary; do not run. Keep hydrated. Get to the hospital as rapidly as possible. 20-30% of strikes are "dry" so even if you have been struck there is not guarantee that venom has been injected. Even if you get venom, the likelihood of a healthy adult having an outcome of anything other than illness from the event is very low.

Caveat emptor: THIS IS NOT MEDICAL ADVICE!!! In other words: Don't try to sue me. If you are really worried about this issue, get training.

[desert spirit]

There is a website somewhere (I can't seem to find it now) that contains a series of first person accounts of people who have been nailed by rattlesnakes. It's sobering reading. While none of them died, they all went through absolute hell, and took many weeks or months to fully recover. One fellow rang up a medical bill of over $300,000. The ironic thing is that they all were bitten in town, and were able to get to the ER in a reasonable time. In one case, the guy was already in shock and barely able to talk and the ER doc somehow didn't realize that it was a rattlesnake bite, and the guy nearly died until they transported him to another hospital.

I don't know how typical their stories are, but I think it would be good to get some solid information on the medical implications.

What this all is telling me is that it's really, really important to be super-vigilant and not get hit in the first place.

you have a safety window of +/- 8 hours

I don't understand what a "safety window" means. Does that mean you've got eight hours before you die? Eight hours before you need to get treatment?

Walk out only if necessary; do not run. Get to the hospital as rapidly as possible.

Seems like a little contradiction there. What does "rapidly as possible" mean if you're not supposed to run?

[Jeffshadows]

Request an evac even if you are in the front country, basically.

[dysfunction]

In response to desert spirit:
well, to be honest I'm more likely to be sticking my hand into someplace where a snakes curled up in town than in the woods. Much similar to the reason I always get hurt doing stupid things, rather than outright dangerous ones.

[JoelHazelton]

I bought some snake gaiters in anticipation of doing some desert bushwhacking during monsoon this summer. Are these much more than piece of mind? Should they be effective?

[Jeffshadows]

I bought some snake gaiters in anticipation of doing some desert bushwhacking during monsoon this summer. Are these much more than piece of mind? Should they be effective?

I've heard good and bad. Anything that makes it harder for the strike to reach your flesh can't be completely bad... ;)

[dysfunction]

FWIW I've used both the plastic hard ones and the canvas covered metal mesh (brass IIRC) ones, I prefer the latter.. although they're hotter.. they move somewhat better.

I don't hike in em. I don't go waltzing through rodent middens normally when hiking.

[jpb252]

I always take enough to survive if I have to spend the night out.

[mttgilbert]

you have a safety window of +/- 8 hours

I don't understand what a "safety window" means. Does that mean you've got eight hours before you die? Eight hours before you need to get treatment?

Walk out only if necessary; do not run. Get to the hospital as rapidly as possible.

Seems like a little contradiction there. What does "rapidly as possible" mean if you're not supposed to run?

"safety window" means it can take up to 8 hours before the venom (if there is any in the bite) starts to "work"

walk out if there's no other way (i.e. evac or assistance), if there's no other way, start right away - don't wait (i.e. "as rapidly as possible")