New Prove-You're-A-Citizen law

[JimmyLyding]

When Governor Brewer signs this into law, can anyone see some unintended consequences? For those who don't know, this law will allow law enforcement officials to require anyone they come into contact with to prove that they are legally allowed to be in this country whether as a citizen or guest. For the record a valid driver's license is NOT considered proof-of-citizenship. Does this mean that those of us who appear as if we might be foreign have to carry around our birth certificates?
I'm not that worried about myself because I'm a 6'4" white dude, but then I remember reading about 80-year-old nuns being strip-searched by airport security.
As for hiking, I always carry my wallet with me because I'd rather risk losing it on the trail than having it stolen out of my car. But I'm not about to carry my birth certificate around. Anyhoo, this law will probably be struck down by the courts.

[Jeffshadows]

Wow...

[azbackpackr]

[Tough_Boots]

I love this whole "taking our jobs" nonsense. They didn't take our jobs-- we gave them away! Just count the US factories in Mexico (or all the business we've outsourced all over the world). All that anti-immigrant rhetoric is being paid for by the corporate bigwigs who sent our jobs out of the country and created a culture of unsustainable growth and don't wanna get blamed for it. Start doing some research and you'll find out that all these nationalistic "grassroots" organizations like the Tea Party don't have their roots in the grass but in the pockets of some pretty recognizable names like Dick Army and Steve Forbes (hell, Enron gave tons of money to FreedomWorks before they got unmasked). FreedomWorks, by the way, is the organization that created the Tea Party.

In my opinion, taking such a huge risk like these immigrants are doing to create a better life for their families is about as American as it gets. We pride ourselves on our heritage but what these people are doing is a straight up continuation of that and we're too worried about our wallets to acknowledge it. Maybe if the economy gets worse here we'll see some Americans grow a pair and start from scratch somewhere else.

[Tough_Boots]

pumpkin Army

OK OK... Richard Army

[azbackpackr]

While there are many problems with the immigrants, which have been addressed so rudely by some and more civilly by others, including the health care mess, and the stolen ID issues, it is also true that a lot of the jobs they take no American citizen wants.

Just in the case of farmworkers in Yuma: Generally, they are well-paid, starting at $10 an hour, which is more than I make driving the school bus. From what I hear, the farmers are under a lot of scrutiny to hire legal help, so they mostly do. But very few Mexicans are given immigration status, compared to the number that actually want it. And the farm owners' labor pool is shrinking, because the general age of the farmworkers is rising, so that most or many of the farmworkers in Yuma today are middle-aged or older people. They are not being replaced by younger people, partly because young Mexicans with green cards can get other jobs, but also because the US is not letting in enough actual skilled farmworkers who want to do that work.

Now, I ask you, when it is lettuce picking time in Yuma, should the farm owners send some buses to south Phoenix and pick up all those people hanging out on the street corners and porches who have no jobs and take them back to Yuma?

The answer is, NO, because those American people who could really use that work do not WANT that work. They are total wusses, they don't want to work that hard (if at all) and they would not last long picking lettuce in the hot sun. They would complain and whine and moan and fuss and say it is too hard.

[Al_HikesAZ]

"Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!" - LtGen Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC

OK I Know - I'm brewing a nice big cup of Shut the Pumpkin Up. Then I'll just kick back and watch this develop in my scope.

[PLC92084]

My tongue is sore from biting it so much... I'm sticking to less-volatile topics so I don't get in trouble!

[Jeffshadows]

This reminds me of something that happened about five years ago. We were looking to have some carpet removed and replaced. I would, ordinarily, do something like that myself but I just didn't have the time and carpet is a pain, anyway. The junk carpet that was in there was put in by a guy the previous owners knew and recommended. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that the carpet was so trashed because of the renters that had inhabited the place before us as opposed to his shoddy workmanship. When he came out to give me a quote he behaved like an idiot, tried the "Hard sell", and wanted five times what Home Depot or some other chain store would want for the job. He also told me that we had better "Watch out" for "Mexicans wanting to undersell him because they steal carpet from job sites and resell it" and that the pad I had bought was "Hippie crap that will break down after a month of use." He's lucky to have made it out of my house with his windpipe intact.

I went on Craigslist and found a guy named "Ernesto." He had his own business, an ROC license, and said he had been doing carpet for almost thirty years. He came out and was very friendly and had a book of work he had done to show me. He gave me a few references and qouted me less than what the Home Depot would have wanted for the removal and install, didn't care that I wanted "Eco-friendly" pad and wanted him to leave a section of concrete for me to tile-in, and was very polite and honest. He and his Spanish-speaking crew came on-time, finished on-time, and did an outstanding job. Far better than the garbage work that other idiot had done, previously. Five years later that carpet and pad are still going strong and look great unlike the stuff that the other blowhard had done (Which I still intend to rid myself of when time permits.) All for one-sixth what the other idiot wanted to charge.

There is a lesson here.

[chumley]

What's the lesson?

A. Are you implying that "Spanish-speaking" people are more skilled?
B. Are you implying that a recommendation from somebody is worthless if you can personally see that the quality of work isn't up to your standards?
C. Are you implying that salespeople who practice hard-sell techniques should be avoided?
D. Are you implying that you should take the time to research and check references before you spend your hard-earned dollar to hire somebody for a job?
E. All of the above

[BobP]

From the tone of this thread(people who oppose sb1070)... seems like you HAZers are in the minority compared to this current poll and every other poll I've seen.
http://www.kvoa.com/news/poll-do-you-support-sb-1070/

[Jeffshadows]

What's the lesson?

A. Are you implying that "Spanish-speaking" people are more skilled?
B. Are you implying that a recommendation from somebody is worthless if you can personally see that the quality of work isn't up to your standards?
C. Are you implying that salespeople who practice hard-sell techniques should be avoided?
D. Are you implying that you should take the time to research and check references before you spend your hard-earned dollar to hire somebody for a job?
E. All of the above

Do a better job, charge a fair price, and behave more professionally and you will not need to worry about anyone coming in and taking business away from you.

[Jeffshadows]

From the tone of this thread(people of oppose sb1070)... seems like you HAZers are in the minority compared to this current poll and every other poll I've seen.
http://www.kvoa.com/news/poll-do-you-support-sb-1070/

How comprehensive are these polls? I'm curious...

[BobP]

@jeffmacewen
The link posted swung 9% in the last few hours...so it is probably auseless internet poll. The other polls were quoted on the news not sure of the sources...would assume they were the major comprehensive ones.

[PLC92084]

Since I tend to favor scientific methodology over anecdotal AND because I intend to stay neutral on this rather controversial topic, I'll only point to those polls which are generally considered credible...

One is the Rasmussen study:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... opup=false

Another is from the Pew Research Center:

http://people-press.org/report/613/ariz ... ration-law

Their methodology is usually more credible than a news agency poll that can be skewed... I leave it up to the reader to decide if they believe the results or not.

[BobP]

@PLC92084
Funny I was gonna post Pew's....
Libs say its flawed for these reasons...no enough cells were called, people have jobs and other reasons not to be at home,it was only conducted in English(loved that). Any poll can and will be flawed but....ohhh never mind.

[chumley]

Do a better job, charge a fair price, and behave more professionally and you will not need to worry about anyone coming in and taking business away from you.

So are you saying that better job, fair price, and professional behavior are exclusive to "Spanish-speaking" people? (Or did I completely misinterpret the "lesson" of your post?)

[Jeffshadows]

I'm not sure that everyone on HAZ agrees with my point-of-view either, guys. There are a few of us that post more than others but that by no means indicates that we speak for the majority. I'm just sharing my viewpoint, nothing more.

[BobP]

From The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration..it goes into more detail per section. This is just the summary of crime. Take it for what it is an internet website. I'm sure someone probably has refuted all these facts or "facts". I still like the quote "Illegal isn't a race...its a crime".

While this report has attempted to put a personal face on the collateral damage of illegal alien crime, note that many of the links in this report detailing some of the crime are dependent on the archiving time of some of the various sources making their articles available. Once taken down, many of the crimes simply "disappear" from American consciousness.

As an example, I'm willing to bet that most people living outside of the Denver metro are not aware that in the fall of 1999 five Asian gang members, illegal aliens as it was reported many years latter, kidnapped and gang raped a University of Colorado coed. Initiation rites were involved and they specifically targeted a "white woman."

If it wasn't for the archiving efforts of some groups fighting illegal immigration general knowledge of such incidents would be lost to all but the most serious researcher. Even with the internet it is very difficult to track down and report the participation level of illegal aliens in crime because NOBODY IS KEEPING TRACK! However, as this report has detailed and documented, it is quite considerable and is the direct consequence of our unfettered immigration policy, porous borders, sanctuary cities, and lack of enforcement.

In recent Testimony of District Attorney John M. Morganelli before the House Subcommittee on immigration, Border, Security and Claims he stated:

"Unfortunately, the majority of illegal aliens who are here are engaged in criminal activity. Identity theft, use of fraudulent social security numbers and green cards, tax evasion, driving without licenses represent some of the crimes that are engaged in by the majority of illegal aliens on a daily basis merely to maintain and hide their illegal status.

In addition, violent crime and drug distribution and possession is also prevalent among illegal aliens. Over 25% of today's federal prison population are illegal aliens. In some areas of the country, 12% of felonies, 25% of burglaries and 34% of thefts are committed by illegal aliens."

Ignoring the "minor crime" such as ID theft and property crimes being committed by illegal aliens, here is a summary on some of the collateral damage reaped in crimes as a result of tolerating illegal aliens in the USA:

* In Los Angeles, 95% of some 1,500 outstanding warrants for homicides are for illegal aliens. About 67% of the 17,000 outstanding fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.
* There are currently over 400,000 unaccounted for illegal alien criminals with outstanding deportation orders. At least one fourth of these are hard core criminals.
* 80,000 to 100,000 illegal aliens who have been convicted of serious crimes are walking the streets. Based on studies they will commit an average of 13 serious crimes per perpetrator.
* Illegal aliens are involved in criminal activities at a rate that is 2-5 times their representative proportion of the population.
* In 1980, our Federal and state facilities held fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens but at the end of 2003, approximately 267,000 illegal aliens were incarcerated in U.S. correctional facilities at a cost of about $6.8 billion per year.
* At least 4.5 million pounds of cocaine with a street value of at least $72 billion is smuggled across the southern border every year. ..
* 56% of illegal aliens charged with a reentry offense had previously been convicted on at least 5 prior occasions.
* Illegal aliens charged with unlawful reentry had the most extensive criminal histories. 90% had been previously arrested. Of those with a prior arrest, 50% had been arrested for violent or drug-related felonies.
* Illegal aliens commit between 700,000 to 1,289,000 or more crimes per year.
* Illegal aliens commit at least 2,158 murders each year – a number that represents three times greater participation than their proportion of the population.
* Illegal alien sexual predators commit an estimated 130,909 sexual crimes each year.
* There may be as many as 240,000 illegal alien sex offenders circulating throughout America. Based on studies, they will commit an average of 8 sex crimes per perpetrator before being caught.
* Nearly 63% of illegal alien sex offenders had been deported on another offense prior to committing the sex crime.
* Only 2% of the illegal alien sex offenders in one study had no history of criminal behavior, beyond crossing the border illegally.
* In Operation Predator, ICE arrested and deported 6,085 illegal alien pedophiles. Some studies suggest each pedophile molests average of 148 children. If so, that could be as many as 900,580 victims.
* Nobody knows how big the Sex Slave problem is but it is enormous.
* The very brutal MS-13 gang has over 15,000 members and associates in at least 115 different cliques in 33 states.
* The overall financial impact of illegal alien crimes is estimated at between $14.4 and $81 billion or more per year. Factor in the crime as a result of the cocaine and other drugs being smuggled in and the number may reach $150 billion per year.

Still think illegal immigration is a "victimless crime" and we don't need to control our borders? Remember, about 60% of the crimes being committed are by illegal aliens who were previously deported.

Allowing our borders to be disregarded coupled with little national commitment about doing anything about it has resulted in growing mayhem by illegal alien criminals, not a "victimless crime."

As the previous sections have detailed, the dark side of illegal immigration includes a lot of horrific crime being perpetrated by the hard core criminal element of the illegal alien population. In the cost-benefit tradeoff of tolerating illegal immigration, how much collateral damage are we willing to accept?

[Jeffshadows]

Some of that is probably very accurate, indeed. I wonder how it would stack up side-by-side with statistics of the same crimes committed by Americans, by category?

What I hate most about this issue is that it is tearing my country apart. It is supremely difficult for people like me who identify with certain issues important to both major parties to be middle of the line, anymore. Things have become so completely polar and vicious. I also find it disconcerting that the major weapon in either side's arsenal seems to be accusing the opposition of being "Stupid" or "Ill-informed." How dare anyone cast such a broad aspersion without the requisite background to make it?!

[sidhayes]

You cannot be middle of the line is this issue. You are either on the side, make excuses, for the multitudes of criminal alien squatters or you realize that every single one of them is a lawbreaker and needs to be dealt with.