Shooting mountain lions & bears

[azdesertfather]

Just saw this on craigslist, any opinions?! I've cut out and spared you the names, emails and phone numbers forthe organizers of this event.;)

Mountain Lion Hunts Available (Southern NM) $2500
craigslist phoenix | sporting goods ...March 08, 2011 16:57
http://WWW.ARROWHEADOUTFITTERS.NET
………………………………………………………………………………………………
5-Day Mountain Lion Hunt w/ Hounds

Hunts Available Dec.1st-March 31st (New Mexico)

Transportation is provided. Main meals and lodging are not included in this price…but we can tailor your hunt as well.

License Fees/Tags
Resident $43 Nonresident $300
Tag is over the counter, has to be bought at the latest 2 days prior.

50% of the total cost must be deposited to hold your hunt date. This hunt fee is $2500.00 per person plus tax for a Tom lion (male). “If the hunter wishes to kill a Queen lion (female) a kill fee of $500 extra will be added”.

The hunt will be conducted by the means of truck, and hiking with the use of well trained/bred lion hounds.

85% Success Rate Snow & 65% Success Rate Dirt. Toms average 130-185 lbs, Queens 60-120 lbs.

Your trophy will be skinned for you. But packing out of hide and meat is not included in price.

Bonus to your lion hunt! You can hunt bobcats around this time as well starting November 15th - March 31st...$250 per bobcat kill fee… unlimited number of bobcats can be harvested, with NM Furbearers Tag.
License Fees
Resident $20.00 Nonresident $345.00

Visit http://www.arrowheadoutfitters.net for more info and other hunts that are available.

Now booking for Fall Black Bear hunts with hounds…Refer to the website.

[azbackpackr]

With hounds is the only way to successfully hunt mountain lions. There is a lion season, and hunting with hounds is legal. Many people who get the tag do hire a guide. Mountain lions are not endangered. Furthermore, they are edible, and extremely tasty. Better tasting than elk or deer, in my estimation. Also, probably many people who buy the tag are not successful in their hunt, especially if they don't hire a guide. (AZ has a very low success rate for most big game hunts, in fact.)

I think if you join some group or another that is against the practice (PETA for example), you then become another one of those screaming crackpot environmentalists who further erode the respectability of more important causes, such as habitat destruction, water pollution, open pit mining, etc. I would estimate about half the people in the US hate tree-huggers, so if you are going to pick a cause, pick wisely.

Incidentally, I have known people who hired the guide in order to photograph the lion as well.

Some of my neighbors in Eagar were guides. I used to talk to one guy when I was out hiking and would see him on horseback in South Fork, working his dogs. It is a specialized kind of guiding, so it is not likely that a lot of people are going to take it on as a business, seeing as you have to not only pay for the guide license yearly ($300 a year in AZ) but be able to house a whole bunch of yowling dogs (have to live in a rural area) and horses, and vehicles to transport them all, and you have to have the skill and loads of time to train them properly. A lot of people get the guide license, but not many will take this on. No one does guiding exclusively--everyone who guides has some sort of a "real job" as well.

Oh, one more thing. After California do-gooders outlawed mountain lion hunting, there was a noticeable increase in the number of people killed by the cats. They easily lose their fear of people.

Pick your battles.

[chumley]

Just saw this on craigslist, any opinions?!

Legal activity. With a government-issued permit. An experienced guide is offering a service for a fee. Legally. God Bless America!

[PLC92084]

They easily lose their fear of people.

I've seen one, on several occasions, while walking in the hills around my house (North San Diego County). I've never had to draw a weapon but it's best to be prepared...

[azbackpackr]

On the old CRHT (California Riding and Hiking Trail) just out of Descanso, probably within Cuyamaca State Park, in about 1973, was where I heard one scream in the middle of the night. I was solo backpacking without a tent.

[Jeffshadows]

One word - "Sad."

[azbackpackr]

I disagree with "sad." This has been going on for decades, and you guys just noticed? And yet the mountain lion population is pretty healthy, from what I can gather. It is a permit, with a season, just like for deer. What is the difference? I would rather those cats be very wary of me when I am hiking, and I feel that if they are just a little pressured during the season it does make them more leery of people.

Here's a page from AZGFD:
http://www.azgfd.gov/h_f/game_lion.shtml

[azbackpackr]

PS, I have to admit I DO have a problem with bear hunting. Not sure how scientific I am about it, but I feel the bear population is not as healthy as the cat population in AZ. (Don't know about NM.)

[PLC92084]

I'm not about to open a can of worms with the hunting/no-hunting debate (still reeling from the feral cat thing - and I do see the irony with this thread...).

If the activity is legal, has no adverse affect on overall population levels I don't see any problem with managed, organized hunts.

[azbackpackr]

I'm not about to open a can of worms with the hunting/no-hunting debate (still reeling from the feral cat thing - and I do see the irony with this thread...).

If the activity is legal, has no adverse affect on overall population levels I don't see any problem with managed, organized hunts.

Worm hunting does not require a permit.

[PLC92084]

@azbackpackr

We have got to hike (or hunt) together sometime... I'll bring the worms!!

[Tough_Boots]

(still reeling from the feral cat thing - and I do see the irony with this thread...).

I was thinking the same thing. Add in the javelina thread and the whole thing gets ridiculously subjective.

Worm hunting does not require a permit.

[Alston_Neal]

I guess the big problem is actually seeing an ad like this in print on an open forum. Usually ads with this info are marketed directly to the specific client.
So yes the ad does come off as pretty cut and dry, which is if one were into this, the neccesary info you need.
Btw, it's not the kind of thing that flips my switch, but as long as it's legal I'll let the moralists fight it out.













Now off to Gilbert for some.....

[kevinweitzel75]

Being an avid hunter, the only animal I hunt that I don't eat is dove. But all my dove goes to someone that will eat them. I don't hunt mountain lion or bear cause I don't eat them. Although I have had lion once and it was damn good.

[azbackpackr]

It really is, isn't it? I have had it only once, too.

My sons used to hunt doves. Then after they cleaned and got the breast meat they would wrap it in bacon and put a toothpick through it and bake it. This started when they were around 10 years old. So, they were so proud of their cooking I had to eat it. Ugh. I don't like it. They did. They hunted a lot and ate every bite of meat, and they fished and they ate that too. They hunted ducks and elk, too. We all went deer, elk and javelina hunting. Have to say sometimes we struck out, though. It was fun going with them. I have never hunted with a shotgun (birds) though. Not my cup of tea, and I am a lousy shot at moving targets, anyway. And I don't like shotguns, they hurt my shoulder and my ears! So do elk rifles. Ouch! Black and blue shoulder!

I am really not all that interested in hunting, though. Too much fuss and bother on a camping trip. Here you are, out there, could go for a nice hike, but then you have to mess around with all this equipment, and then after you have a large animal down, you have to butcher it real quick and get it to someplace cold so it doesn't spoil. Real pain in the neck if you ask me. I'd rather just buy a steak at the store, and take it on a camping trip.

[nonot]

Where the red fern grows.

With prices like that, it's no wonder people are out in AZ poaching em...that is of course when the forest service isn't killing them off, like MachoB!

[big_load]

With prices like that, it's no wonder people are out in AZ poaching em...that is of course when the forest service isn't killing them off, like MachoB!

An interesting thread through the MachoB transcripts is that "guides" were known to be using radio equipment to conduct easy hunts on collared lions. That knowledge played a small part in the unfortunate outcome because of its influence on the decision of what collars to use on the jaguar and how that played into the hands of the guilty parties.

[JimmyLyding]

Oh, one more thing. After California do-gooders outlawed mountain lion hunting, there was a noticeable increase in the number of people killed by the cats. They easily lose their fear of people.

There is considerable debate about this. The famous (alleged) double attack in Orange County is a great example of the theory that mountain lion attacks are not related to a lack of hunting. Suburbanization has increasingly pushed the urban-wildland interface farther into once-wild areas. This not only shrinks the amount of habitat available to sustain cougar prey, but also brings more human beings into potential contact with these cats.

Additionally, there are more humans in the outdoors than ever before. Simple mathematics tells us that there are bound to be more cougar-human interactions.

The big fact that shoots the "no hunting=more lion attacks" argument full of holes is that states that allow mountain lion hunting have also seen an increase in the relative number of attacks over the last few decades. There's plenty of lion hunting in Colorado, and also (relatively) plenty of lion attacks. Same with every other state that harbors sizable populations of mountain lions. It's clear that something besides a lack of hunting is causing the relative increase in the number of lion attacks.

Getting back to the famous double attack in Orange County, they took place in an area that would be extremely unlikely to see lion hunting were it legal. These attacks took place in Whiting Ranch park. This park is in the Santa Ana Mountains which are sandwiched between the sizable suburbs of Lake Forest, Rancho Margarita, Yorba Linda, Corona, and Temecula. We can't have packs of lion hounds running through suburban neighborhoods and mountains that see recreational use that rivals what we see at Phoenix's South Mountain. In fact, the cougar population in the Santa Ana Mtns is considered to be in big trouble due to habitat loss and lack of connections to other habitats. Perhaps inbreeding in this somewhat isolated cougar population has produced cats that don't act "natural."

There are other factors at work as well. The cougar population in North America dwindled to a small % of what it once was due to the same reasons why wolves and grizzly bears were eliminated throughout much of their former range. Heck, Governor Ronald Reagan issued a moratorium on recreational cougar hunting in 1972 (it should be noted that there was not a cougar attack until 1986 in California), and this was later made permanent in 1990 at the ballot w/ the passage of Prop 117. The cougar population has rebounded in a big way all across the West, and this combined with the explosion of outdoor recreation virtually guarantees human-cougar interactions.

Another fact that blows away the "no hunting=more lion attacks" argument is that a significant number of lions are killed by humans every year in California. Since 1995 an average of 85 cougars have been killed by California Game & Fish because they threatened people. On average another 100 cougars are killed by people with special permits to protect livestock and/or pets. Simply put, 185 of the cougars that have shown a relative lack of fear of humans are killed every year in California.

Mountain lions are like great white sharks in terms of attacking people. The attacks are rare, and typically do not result in loss of human life. Furthermore, the offending cougar is frequently killed (unlike great white sharks), and with both animal species there isn't a series of attacks over time. Unlike white sharks, cougar attacks typically fit the pattern of natural predation. The most likely victim is a child or smaller person. 6'2" 200 lbs. men are much less likely to be attacked than 10-year-old kids are just as cougars take a lot more fawns than mature buck deer.

Finally, anyone who thinks that hunting mountain lions makes people safer should consider the following statistics: 85 people have been killed in hunting accidents in California during the last 20 years, but only 14 people have been killed by cougars in all of North America over the last 100 years.

[azbackpackr]

Gee maybe California should allow more hunting--take care of that awful problem they have with overpopulation (of people, that is.)

Your analysis sounds pretty good. However, I still don't see outlawing cougar hunting in AZ. It has been going on for decades, in just the same way as described in the Craigslist ad, with the hounds, and yet I keep on hearing that AZ has a healthy population of the cats. I don't think a lot of urban people would know about this type of hunting. I didn't know very much about it until I lived in a rural area.

[PLC92084]

...maybe California should allow more hunting

I don't think they make rifle racks for the hybrids yet...