2013-2014 HAZ Road Rally

[PaleoRob]

Okay folks, I am back in AZ after my wild whirlwind summer full of good memories and wild ideas. One idea that I have had in my mind for years finally crystallized for me. It started with a question I had in '99: Is it possible to cross the state without driving on pavement?
I immediately ran into problems, logistically. Getting gas. Crossing paved roads. Some drainages are only crossable on pavement. Lots of things needed to be dealt with. I think I have come up with ways around all the issues so I'm going to lay out the rules and objectives here. I am not sure how many people will take this up but you never know unless you try, right?

2013-2014 HAZ Road Rally
Purpose
To travel the full north-south distance of the State of Arizona in the least amount of time possible while also spending a minimum of time on paved roads.
Grand Prize
$100 REI Gift Certificate

Rules
Starting Location
Contestant may start at the Arizona/Mexico border, Arizona/Utah, or the Arizona/Colorado border
Contestants starting at the Arizona/Mexico border west of Nogales will incur a time penalty based on departure location
Contestants may start along the Arizona/Nevada border but will incur a time penalty based on departure location
Contestants may start along the Arizona/New Mexico border north of Fort Defiance but will incur a time penalty based on departure location
Contestants may not start along the Arizona/California border
The starting location must be an unpaved road crossing or paralleling the chosen border
The contestant must start on their chosen road at a point no further than 100 yards away from the chosen border
Ending Location
Contestant may end at the Arizona/Mexico border, Arizona/Utah, or the Arizona/Colorado border
Contestants may end along the Arizona/Nevada border but will incur a time penalty based on ending location
Contestants may end along the Arizona/New Mexico border north of Fort Defiance but will incur a time penalty based on ending location
Contestants may not end along the Arizona/California border
The ending location must be an unpaved road crossing or paralleling the chosen border
The contestant must end on their chosen road at a point no further than 5 yards away from the chosen border
A time bonus will be awarded to contestants who cross the chosen border on an unpaved road
Travel Rules
Contestants must spend the majority of the travel distance on unpaved roads
Unpaved roads are considered to be designated, open routes that are not surfaced with asphalt, concrete, or chip seal
Contestants spending greater than 10% of travel distance on paved routes will incur a time penalty
Contestants spending greater than 25% of travel distance on paved routes will be disqualified
Crossing a paved route in order to continue travel on an unpaved route will not count against travel distance
Contestant will not be required to complete the travel in one trip
Contestants who do complete the travel in one trip will earn a bonus prize (if they have the winning entry)
Contestants will be required to keep a GPS log of their travel in order to be eligible for the prize
Contestants will be required to photograph their departure and end points
Contestants must obey all relevant motor vehicle laws
Contestants may not travel outside of the state of Arizona on their travel route until the end of the trip
Awarding Prizes
Entries will be judged based on overall travel time
Travel time will be judged based on final GPS route(s) submitted to myself via PM and posted on HikeArizona.com
Starting west of Nogales, Arizona will result in a penalty of one minute for every 2 lateral miles
Starting along the New Mexico border will result in a penalty of one minute for every mile south of Four Corners, up to Fort Defiance.
A minimum penalty of 80 minutes will be assessed for starting along the Nevada border south of the Colorado River at Hoover Dam. An additional minute will be added for every linear mile south
Entries must be submitted before 8/4/2014 at 11:59PM in order to be judged
Only travel time shown on GPS logs will be counted as part of the entry. Completing the HAZ Rally in multiple legs is allowed. Travel to and from leg start/end sections will not count against the contestant
Contestants spending greater than 10% of travel distance on paved routes will incur a time penalty of 1 minute per mile (or fraction thereof)
Contestants spending greater than 25% of travel distance on paved routes will be disqualified
Crossing a paved route in order to continue travel on an unpaved route will not count against travel distance
Grand Prize: $100 REI Gift Certificate (lowest overall time)
1st Prize: $50 REI Gift Certificate
Runner up (2): $25 REI Gift Certificate
Contestants who earn one of the prizes and cross the border at their end point will receive a signed copy of The Marauders by Rob Gay.

Anyone interested?

[PaleoRob]

I'm confused by the inclusion of the Arizona/Colorado border. (Is a point even considered a border?)

Because if I didn't I'm sure someone would question why I had left it off the list.

[PaleoRob]

Better not share my hand with anybody, there's a $100 at stake.

If I even attempt this it sure wouldn't be for a hundred bucks... at today's gas prices it's a losing proposition. ...
From the looks of it, time penalties will amount to no consequence if the pavement miles can't be kept under 10%. Hmmm, maybe the trick is to rack up extra miles winding around in circles off pavement in order to make it work. [-X

Hahaha. Yeah, I was debating on how to structure the penalties. This year will be a sort of trial run. Depending on how the entries fall out the penalties might be changed for next year. Of course next year might involve a different challenge all together...
And, yes, obviously the $100 is a pittance compared to the gas cost. Sort of an acknowledgement of hard work instead of a reimbursement for $$$ spent. Since prizes are coming out of my pocket I definitely couldn't afford to have the prize be paying for gas!

[CannondaleKid]

Ok Rob,

Unpaved roads are considered to be designated, open routes...

With beterarcher and spiderlegs mentioning motorcycles & ATV's (both good ideas) it appears a few more specifics may be in order.

By designated open roads do you mean:
1. Roads open and legal for automobile traffic?
2. Are you also allowing routes open only to motorcycle and/or ATV traffic (but not cars/4x4's)?
My vote would be for #1 only.

I'm still trying to get my mind around the winner being determined by overall time with the 10% distance qualifier.
Wouldn't solely either time or distance would work better?
Example: If you aimed exactly at the 10% driving on paved roads (at 65-75 mph posted) that could provide a distinct time advantage over someone who managed to get it under 5% on paved roads.

Either one:
1. Distance-only - Shortest overall with paved travel under 10% of the overall distance.
2. Time-only - Shortest overall with paved travel under 5% of the overall time.

[beterarcher]

@CannondaleKid
I'd follow cannondalekid's rule #1-A. I wouldn't want a totally unfair advantage, considering all the single track out there. I think MPH is a moot point. Any time parlaying with local authorities would be more than equal to any time penalties for exceeding the posted speed limit. After all it IS a rally right? Let's keep it as close to "The Cannonball Run" as possible. ;)

[CannondaleKid]

Any time parlaying with local authorities would be more than equal to any time penalties for exceeding the posted speed limit.

According to: Contestants must obey all relevant motor vehicle laws
ANY time parlaying with local authorities would disqualify you, irrelevant of any time loss.

In my reasonably extensive experience over the last three years scouting out as many dirt roads as possible (mainly Tonto NF roads and adjacent BLM land) the average speed driving on good dirt roads is in the 30 mph range while on pavement even obeying posted speeds the average would easily be 60 mph.
That said... I stand by my example, and feel time should be irrelevant. Besides, I have a feeling simply mapping out a route to fit within the constraints will be harder than the actual driving... so far in my case, I'm sure it will take longer to plan it than drive it.

Further:

After all it IS a rally right? Let's keep it as close to "The Cannonball Run" as possible.

I'm not so sure that was Rob's intent...
As someone who has participated in rallies, albeit a lifetime ago, they usually fall under two types:
1. Time-to-distance rallies, where a route is provided and it's up to contestants to come closest to the allotted time. Since these aren't about the fastest speed, they are usually held on open public roads and all laws must be obeyed.
2. World Rally Championship rallies, where a route is provided and the object is to get from point A to point B in the shortest amount of time. Most of these are a series of very short distance runs over closed roads, seldom over 10-12 miles. The shortest time after adding all the sections together is the winner.

As a purist, I don't categorize the Cannonball Runs as rallies at all, but rather a rebel-without-a-cause, stupidity-of-youth race on public roads with a pure disdain for laws and the safety of others. (And if I was still young and stupid I'd probably be all fired up for one right now)

But in deference for those who wish to categorize a 'Cannonball Run' as rally here's #3...
3. Cannonball Baker Sea-To-Shining-Sea Memorial Trophy Dash-style where there are little or no rules other than start (Red Ball Garage in NYC) and end (Portofino Inn in Redondo Beach) points. The fastest being run at an AVERAGE of 87 mph. One of the previous winners who averaged 80 mph stated "At no time did we exceed 175 mph."

While this 'rally' falls closer to #1 than the others, due to the obeying motor vehicle laws rule I'm under the distinct impression Rob really did not meant this to be like either 2 or 3.

[beterarcher]

"At no time did we exceed 175 mph."

perfect.

[CannondaleKid]

When I was a bit younger and not quite as wise, the highest I reached with a fully stock street-legal car was 140 on I-80 in Utah with not another car in sight for miles. Even with my mountain bike on a hitch-mounted rack it easily had more to go but it was electronically limited.
BTW, it was an Acura TL S-Type... and almost unbelievably over roughly a 2500 mile trip it averaged 27 mpg. Best car I ever owned, wish I still had it.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread...

Ok, now it's back to HAZ Road Rally

[SpiderLegs]

So far the little digging that I've done on other people that have attempted this, looks like you may have to suck it up and plan for the pavement penalty. Just no way of legally getting around certain parts of the state off road (either Indian reservation or ranches). Plus if you want things like gas or water you will need to divert to pavement to pick up supplies.

Some of the roads also require permits in order to get the combos to the locks blocking access to said roads. This is turning into an interesting little puzzle.

[CannondaleKid]

looks like you may have to suck it up and plan for the pavement penalty. Some of the roads also require permits in order to get the combos to the locks blocking access to said roads.

Just taking the area I am most familiar with (center 1/3 of the state) I figured that gaining legal access was going to be the toughest challenge.

This is turning into an interesting little puzzle.

Most definitely. The more I research the more I agree with you about the pavement penalty.

Just curious... what you found about the ATV'ers, did they do it relatively straight through or segments at a time and how long did it take?

[beterarcher]

This is turning into an interesting little puzzle.

Interesting enough for you to disclose the names of the book and website you found?

[SpiderLegs]

It appears this is not that big of a secret, just Google "Great Western Trail".

The people on the ATV did it one shot over a few days. Rode all the way from Canada to Mexico on ATV's. Here is their website: http://www.quadtrek.net/html/07_07_07_eg..htm

Here is the book on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007V4 ... ikearizona

Just started reading the book, it only covers traveling from the Phoenix area up to Utah.

[beterarcher]

@SpiderLegs
thanks

[CannondaleKid]

While it appears the Quadtrec ATV folks took roads that weren't for cars, they still had trouble finding non-paved roads even on the Navajo Reservation. Here's an excerpt from their day 94-97 log:
Surprise, Surprise!! We thought that most of the roads on the Navajo rez would be gravel... Au contraire! Almost all roads are paved! Couldn't find one that would get us to Pinon that wouldn't be!!

Taking a good look at the map of their route from Page to Pinon, a good half of it was on pavement... so much for using their route.
Looks like tossing the 10% out the window will be the ticket just to get the job done. But that's part of the challenge.

BTW, stats for the Quadtrec ATV trip: 264 days, 9400 miles, 2 quads, one couple, no support team from Canada to Cabo San Lucas and back to Arizona Wow!
(And they made it using 10% of paved roads)

[SpiderLegs]

Plus they had an issue finding roads that were not closed off around Lake Havasu. So there may be roads and routes out there, just not able to drive on them.

[PaleoRob]

Ok Rob,

Unpaved roads are considered to be designated, open routes...

With beterarcher and spiderlegs mentioning motorcycles & ATV's (both good ideas) it appears a few more specifics may be in order.

By designated open roads do you mean:
1. Roads open and legal for automobile traffic?
2. Are you also allowing routes open only to motorcycle and/or ATV traffic (but not cars/4x4's)?
My vote would be for #1 only.

I was originally not going to limit it but after reading over the discussions here and thinking about it some more I would agree that we should be limited to routes that street legal vehicles can travel. Unless there is a strong opposing view I will modify the initial post to reflect this.

I'm still trying to get my mind around the winner being determined by overall time with the 10% distance qualifier.
Wouldn't solely either time or distance would work better?
Example: If you aimed exactly at the 10% driving on paved roads (at 65-75 mph posted) that could provide a distinct time advantage over someone who managed to get it under 5% on paved roads. Either one:
1. Distance-only - Shortest overall with paved travel under 10% of the overall distance.
2. Time-only - Shortest overall with paved travel under 5% of the overall time.

I'm not sure how much of advantage it would provide. Assuming a 700 mile route you have, at most, 70 miles on the pavement. If you are looking at spending these miles on the freeway to gain a time advantage you have, what, around an hour of travel there? Plus you're going to have to carry your gas and supplies now (or do the route in multiple trips) since you won't be able to go into town to gas up or anything since all your non-penalty miles were burned up. I'm still up for discussion on it but I don't see the issue. Maybe I'm not understanding the criticism completely? I'll think on the suggestions though. Like I said, this has been a long time coming but it is also the first attempt.

[PaleoRob]

Unrelated: I think I've got a reasonable route plotted across the Rez at this point. Getting away from the Mexican border is my biggest issue in my route planning at this point so far.

[CannondaleKid]

Plus you're going to have to carry your gas and supplies now (or do the route in multiple trips) since you won't be able to go into town to gas up

I don't anticipate this as a problem as so far all the places I'll be on pavement will have fuel available. And for me with a 30 gallon tank, even at 11 mpg I can go over 300 miles between fills so as long as I filled every chance I got I'd be fine.

[CannondaleKid]

I think I've got a reasonable route plotted across the Rez at this point.

Yep, after all the time you've spent up that way I figured you'd have a lock on travel across the Rez. A question for you which should be equally helpful to all... does one need a permit for just driving dirt roads through the Rez? If so where can we get one?

Getting away from the Mexican border is my biggest issue in my route planning at this point so far

I have absolutely no knowledge of any routes south of I-10 so I'm lost here... and with that being the case getting valid information will be a real problem and scouting ahead of time seems to be the only way to be sure.

Scouting over many trips is the only way I know I can get from the rim to a line drawn roughly from Safford on the east to Parker on the west.

[CannondaleKid]

Maybe I'm not understanding the criticism completely? I'll think on the suggestions though. Like I said, this has been a long time coming but it is also the first attempt.

Hey, I hear ya and give kudos to how much thought you put into this first attempt. :worthy:

My main thought for shortest distance rather than shortest time would be to keep the playing field as level as possible.
Everybody has a different comfort level when it comes to speed on a gravel road, and for the folks with vehicles that aren't well suited for driving on dirt roads (and tires in particular) obviously they will be at a disadvantage.

I wouldn't be one with the disadvantage (other than planning the route) so maybe I should just shut up, but again, I'd like to see it as fair as possible to keep it open to more folks who wish to participate.

[SpiderLegs]

Getting away from the Mexican border is my biggest issue in my route planning at this point so far

I have absolutely no knowledge of any routes south of I-10 so I'm lost here... and with that being the case getting valid information will be a real problem and scouting ahead of time seems to be the only way to be sure.



I'm sure a few million people have figured out a route away from the Mexican border.