Motorized Electric Bikes On Trails

[SpiderLegs]

Had my first encounter with one of those new motorized E-Bikes on Trail 100 yesterday. Guess the intent of these bikes is to have a small electric motor to "assist" the rider up short, steep sections of trail. The bikes have a max speed of about 20 MPH. I really got ticked off when I saw this guy plowing down the trail on what in my mind is essentially a low powered motorcycle.

Has anyone else bumped into these bikes yet? From the cursory bit of research I've read these bikes exist in a grey area and haven't been banned yet because they are so new to the market.

[hikeaz]

E-bike regs - Input requested..
https://cara.ecosystem-management.org/P ... =ORMS-2619

[hikeaz]

Really?
BBB Plan. Increase the federal tax credits for electric bicycles to 30% of the purchase price. The credit for e-bikes is capped at $900. Those that cost more than $3,000 don't qualify for any credit; nor do those with motors more powerful than 750 watts; also excluded are e-bicycles that can go more than 20 miles per hour without the rider pedaling, and e-bicycles that can go more than 28 miles per hour with the rider pedaling. The final major exclusion is income, a primary caveat placed in several versions of bills so far that aims to ensure credits go to buyers who need them most. Once a tax filer makes more than $75,000 per year, every $1,000 of modified gross income above that number drops the eligible credit by $200.

[chumley]

@hikeaz
My emotional state is not viscerally affected by the things a senile old man does and I don't care to deep dive into this particular subject, but to clarify, the BBB is the currently proposed legislation (still subject to changes when reconciled between chambers)? So this ebike stuff hasn't been codified just yet?

[hikeaz]

So this ebike stuff hasn't been codified just yet?

True. Congress now has THEIR hands out to the folks who may benefit from this. (Also; I wonder where nearly all these bikes are made? - I thought the BBB pertained to AMERICA.)
Many bike companies claim 'Made in America', however they take license with the word 'Made', as most of them ASSEMBLE Taiwanese and Chinese-made parts in the US.

[eru]

In actual wilderness areas standard bikes aren’t allowed on trails, so ebikes should be a no go. Most places limit ebikes to the class 1 (pedal assist / 20mph limit) though I saw a few people not pedaling up hills on a trip to Acadia NP on the carriage roads.

I have a few friends / family members in their mid 60s that live near large hills, and having a class 1 ebike helps them get out and be active… that’s fine with me as long as they’re not chewing up terrain. Most people that I know that use ebikes have pedal assist for uphill then turn it off going down and flat - if someone is zooming *down* a trail it’s more of a bike vs ebike debate IMO.

It should be a decision made at an individual trail level vs blanket regs IMO as terrain durability is the major issue along with trail width/visibility (or segments on a long acronym thru hike trail). I keep away from the acronym stuff myself whenever I can. MTB folk tend to cluster to locations and make their own trails, they’re rarely an issue for me hiking but that’s also where I hike to a large extent.

It’s more exercise than ripping new ruts on muddy FR roads with a fully loaded OHV heh. I saw plenty of tracks off sanctioned roads ~black glass canyon in the supes, oil in a large puddle, shattered mirror glass, people spraypainting arrows on rocks, etc.

[raisingarizona13]

I think E-bikes are really fun. For the athletic person they can generally do 3 to 4 times the amount of distance than a regular bike, like regular mountain bikes they aren't more erosive than hikers and horses as long as trails are built properly and to modern day trail standards. As I get older I don't have time to "train" or do regular work outs like some suggest in here as I'm kept busy with family responsibilities and going to work so a little assist for bike rides sounds pretty nice to me. E-bikes help older people and those with disabilities continue to get outside and remain active and they're more environmentally friendly than using a gas burning automobile for getting around town or going to work, that's something I imagine everyone in here can agree on as being a positive.

I don't see them being a hazard to other trail users as long as the shared trails are designed properly and have long sight lines as well as signed well to educate users. E-bikes aren't faster on the downhills but on uphills or flat sections they can cruise pretty good soloing, clear sight line corridors are important. For the hikers in here beating the erosion drum you can stop that already, it's proven that bikes don't create more erosion than horses or hikers unless the trail is excessively steep with tight corners forcing a mountain biker to skid their tires while locking up their brakes on long sustained sections. That again can be mitigated with proper trail design.

Negatives? They cover more ground than a regular mountain biker can, generally speaking so that is an increase of use across our example trail system which would likely have more impact on wildlife, that's simple math. Another aspect would be that if theirs a lot of E-bikers on our example trail system then there will be an obvious increase in tread damage from basic use. I do a lot of volunteer trail days here on the Coconino NF and as we all know available resources for trail construction and maintenance are very thin. We probably don't want to create more of a work log unless there's more funding available. Someone mentioned that ohv users pay a tax on purchase of their vehicle and yearly with their tags. Something like that would be sweet, maybe even a retail tax on regular mountain bikes could help too. I'm a hiker but I also ride and I'd be happy to contribute $.

They don't belong in the wilderness imho, I like having quiet places that you have to hoof it into, that's important to me but on regular multi-use trails on public lands there is probably going to have to be a compromise. I don't see them going away. The main problem with keeping them illegal on those trails is enforcement. The FS doesn't have the financial resources to go out and ticket people for riding their E-bikes. It ain't going to happen and there's much bigger fish for them to fry than people enjoying themselves on electric bicycles. You know, like real crime stuff.

Anyways, there's 2 cents from a forest/wilderness user that enjoys many forms of recreation. And man, some of you people in here sound so old and grumpy, kind of like the hikers I meet while riding that block the trail in front of me, throw sticks on the trail and are generally no fun to be around or sometimes actually try to start a fight with me. Trust me, I think mountain bikers can be super annoying as well but so are segments of all mountain town sports people and outdoor recreatoin folks. the sense of entitlement and arrogance can be so off-putting. I mean, if you're that angry when you go out into the forest that you hate others people that have a different way of recreating you gotta be one miserable SOAB! I actually feel sad for those people. That one guy in here uses that word....what was it? Oh yeah, pathetic.

[sidhayes]

@raisingarizona13
They are a hazzard and pathetic as well.

[LindaAnn]

The electricity for e-bikes, while a small amount, does not come from fairy dust and unicorn farts, it comes from the same power grid that burns a lot of fossil fuels. Even the utilities that claim to be using environmentally friendly power sources (solar, wind, etc) back those sources up with diesel generators. The materials in those fancy rechargeable batteries aren’t exactly environmentally friendly either. The mining is dirty, messy, hazardous, contaminates water, and often performed by young children in foreign countries. And those batteries don’t last forever, not to mention where they end up afterwards.

However, the lung and leg power of a traditional bike is quite environmentally friendly, not to mention the health bonus of performing the physical activity yourself.

[CannondaleKid]

They don't belong in the wilderness imho

They not only don't belong in a Federal Wilderness, they are not legal... heck even regular bicycles are not legal in a wilderness.

Whatever side one is on when it comes to e-bikes on trails, riding an e-bike on a designated non-motorized trail on ANY Federal land is currently NOT legal.

Note: I'm not saying whether it should stay that way or not, just the current fact, which may change soon as:
"The Forest Service is actively exploring how to incorporate new trends in recreation use on national forests and grasslands and to expand e-bike use in areas other than those currently open to it."

On the Department of Agriculture site is states:
"Class 1, 2, and 3 e-bikes and electric mountain bicycles (eMTBs) are allowed on approximately 60,000 miles or nearly 40 percent of trails on national forests and grasslands."
However, one thing not very clear on that page of the site is that the trails and roads referred to in that statement are designated as open to motorized vehicles.

So... CURRENTLY, no e-bikes of ANY class is legal on the Hawes trails in Tonto National Forest.
(An e-bike HAS a motor, and as such is a "motorized-vehicle")
Not that that fact (or the signs) will stop folks from doing so... I encountered two yesterday on a Hawes trail.

[cactuscat]

@CannondaleKid
Actually under Arizona law, a class 1 or 2 ebike is the same as a regular bike - it is not considered a "motor vehicle" ... they are allowed wherever boring bikes are, UNLESS an area is specifically posted "no ebikes".
For instance the Loop in Tucson ... I would love to ride that - but I follow the rules and the signs that say no ebikes ... many people don't - because people are selfish jerks (being an ebike rider does not make you a jerk, being a jerk does).

[cactuscat]

This sums it up pretty well.

[chumley]

@cactuscat
The flyer is helpful, but as a very pro-ebike organization it doesn't place much emphasis on the statement that

on federal land ebikes are considered motorized vehicles

@cannondalekid was specifically referring to National Forest land, where even your flyer specifically agrees with his post.

[cactuscat]

@chumley
Yes - basically I'm advocating for people to follow the damn rules (as usual).
It does amuse me that some people who are so against rules and government oversight in some instances are all about for bringing out the national guard to shoot down ebikers or whatever, lol. Hypocrisy much?
I'm also just trying to drive home the point that just because you may consider anything with a motor to be a "motor vehicle", doesn't make it so. By law, they are not. A random trail or bike path open to regular bikes on Arizona land (not Federal) is still open to ebikes even if it has a no motor vehicles sign - if it says "no ebikes", then no ebikes.

[CannondaleKid]

Actually under Arizona law, a class 1 or 2 ebike is the same as a regular bike

Yes, while Arizona (and likely other governmental entities) choose to define ebikes that way, I believe I was pretty clear I was speaking about on Federal lands, not State, County or City land.
As opposed to Arizona, the DoA/Forest Service chose to define it as I stated... if it has a motor, it is considered a motorized vehicle.

BTW, due to my advancing age and declining physical state (slowly, so far), if I could afford to I likely would already own an ebike and would be taking extended rides on the motorized trails in The Rolls.

[raisingarizona13]

@LindaAnn

And the same for your hiking boots, the car you drive to the trail head in and the house you live in. You do live in a house I imagine? I bet all of our houses are located in what have could been seen as critical wildlife habitat some time ago. Whats the square footage and how many do you share that dwelling with? It doesn't matter, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the higher than thow eco warrior hiking only crowd.

[raisingarizona13]

@sidhayes
you sound angry and hateful. So Canadian Sorry about your life bud.

There isn't any point in arguing with you. You're a zealot stuck in your ways. Thats sad and imo pathetic, like an adult with a Childs underdeveloped brain.

[LindaAnn]

@raisingarizona13 Oh, I don’t really care, the more fossil fuels you burn, the better my bank accounts look, I’m just pointing out they’re not going to save the environment. Ride one all you want, it doesn’t matter to me. Gonna be a heavy bike when the battery dies though.

[cactuscat]

@CannondaleKid
Agreed, and my comments weren't directed at you despite the fact that I was responding to your comment ... I was more responding to the general theme of many of the comments.
Riding The Rolls sounds fun, I hope you get to!

[sidhayes]

@raisingarizona13
The word child is not capitalized. I will not be getting out of your way.

[Jim]

Critical Theory falls flat.

What people bait post falls flat.

Fire falls flat.

But those e-bikes brings it out.