Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
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hikeazGuides: 6 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 1,012 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: 1,011 d
- Joined: May 13 2002 10:07 am
- City, State: Tempe, AZ
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Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
Grand Canyon National Park (AZ)
Hikers Evacuated After Three SPOT Activations In Three Days
On the evening of September 23rd, rangers began a search for hikers who repeatedly activated their rented SPOT satellite tracking device. The GEOS Emergency Response Center in Houston reported that someone in the group of four hikers – two men and their two teenaged sons – had pressed the "help" button on their SPOT unit. The coordinates for the signal placed the group in a remote section of the park, most likely on the challenging Royal Arch loop. Due to darkness and the remoteness of the location, rangers were unable to reach them via helicopter until the following morning. When found, they'd moved about a mile and a half to a water source. They declined rescue, as they'd activated the device due to their lack of water. Later that same evening, the same SPOT device was again activated, this time using the "911" button. Coordinates placed them less than a quarter mile from the spot where searchers had found them that morning. Once again, nightfall prevented a response by park helicopter, so an Arizona DPS helicopter whose crew utilized night vision goggles was brought in. They found that the members of the group were concerned about possible dehydration because the water they'd found tasted salty, but no actual emergency existed. The helicopter crew declined their request for a night evacuation, but provided them with water before departing. On the following morning, another SPOT "help" activation came in from the group. This time they were flown out by park helicopter. All four refused medical assessment or treatment. The group's leader had reportedly hiked once at the Grand Canyon; the other adult had no Grand Canyon and very little backpacking experience. When asked what they would have done without the SPOT device, the leader stated, "We would have never attempted this hike." The group leader was issued a citation for creating a hazardous condition (36 CFR 2.34(a)(4)).
Hikers Evacuated After Three SPOT Activations In Three Days
On the evening of September 23rd, rangers began a search for hikers who repeatedly activated their rented SPOT satellite tracking device. The GEOS Emergency Response Center in Houston reported that someone in the group of four hikers – two men and their two teenaged sons – had pressed the "help" button on their SPOT unit. The coordinates for the signal placed the group in a remote section of the park, most likely on the challenging Royal Arch loop. Due to darkness and the remoteness of the location, rangers were unable to reach them via helicopter until the following morning. When found, they'd moved about a mile and a half to a water source. They declined rescue, as they'd activated the device due to their lack of water. Later that same evening, the same SPOT device was again activated, this time using the "911" button. Coordinates placed them less than a quarter mile from the spot where searchers had found them that morning. Once again, nightfall prevented a response by park helicopter, so an Arizona DPS helicopter whose crew utilized night vision goggles was brought in. They found that the members of the group were concerned about possible dehydration because the water they'd found tasted salty, but no actual emergency existed. The helicopter crew declined their request for a night evacuation, but provided them with water before departing. On the following morning, another SPOT "help" activation came in from the group. This time they were flown out by park helicopter. All four refused medical assessment or treatment. The group's leader had reportedly hiked once at the Grand Canyon; the other adult had no Grand Canyon and very little backpacking experience. When asked what they would have done without the SPOT device, the leader stated, "We would have never attempted this hike." The group leader was issued a citation for creating a hazardous condition (36 CFR 2.34(a)(4)).
"The censorship method ... is that of handing the job over to some frail and erring mortal man, and making him omnipotent on the assumption that his official status will make him infallible and omniscient."
George Bernard Shaw
George Bernard Shaw
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big_loadGuides: 0 | Official Routes: 1Triplogs Last: 596 d | RS: 3Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: 2,484 d
- Joined: Oct 28 2003 11:20 am
- City, State: Andover, NJ
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
Repeated misuse should have serious consequences. Whatever those consequences may be, it should include permanent permit ineligibility.
As someone said elsehwhere: if you're not prepared to do it without SPOT, you're not prepared.hikeaz wrote:When asked what they would have done without the SPOT device, the leader stated, "We would have never attempted this hike."
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dysfunctionGuides: 0 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 5,693 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
- Joined: Dec 20 2008 7:38 pm
- City, State: Tucson, AZ
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
In response to rally_toad:
Yea, very clearly.. in BOLD letters, at the bottom of my GCNP backcountry permit it says...
Guess a disclaimer isn't enough
especially since that ain't the only time such a warning appears on the permit 
Yea, very clearly.. in BOLD letters, at the bottom of my GCNP backcountry permit it says...
NOTE: HIKERS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY. KNOW YOUR LIMITS!
Guess a disclaimer isn't enough


mike
"Solvitur ambulando" or maybe by brewers.
"Solvitur ambulando" or maybe by brewers.
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RedRoxx44Guides: 5 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 8 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: 6,293 d
- Joined: Feb 15 2003 8:07 am
- City, State: outside, anywhere
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
Hikers misuse portable GPS trackers
Saturday, Oct. 17, 2009
By Marek Warszawski / The Fresno Bee
Saving yourself from danger in the wilderness used to require skill. Also plenty of effort.
Now, all it takes is the touch of a finger.
Press button. Distress call transmitted. Authorities notified. Help on the way.
When used correctly, personal locator beacons and satellite trackers greatly assist search-and-rescue efforts by providing exact GPS coordinates for a person who is lost or injured.
But as more people take these devices into the backcountry, more people are using them irresponsibly, say rangers at Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks. Too often they decide to push a button instead of using their heads.
"We've had more illegitimate distress calls this summer than ever before, thanks to these gizmos," said wilderness coordinator Gregg Fauth.
Among the examples from this summer:
A Pacific Crest Trail hiker, frightened during a lightning storm, transmitted two 911 calls on her personal satellite messenger. A widespread search ensued, only for a sheriff to find her in Lone Pine several days later. She neglected to tell anyone she had gotten out.
Barely a mile from the trailhead, a Boy Scout troop sent a 911 emergency call because someone had sprained an ankle.
A 68-year-old-woman, backpacking solo in a remote section of the parks, sent an ambiguous "Help" message to her husband 15 times over a 12-hour period after falling and hitting her head. The woman never stopped moving, sending rangers on a needless chase, before she exited the wilderness on her own.
"We're going to respond, but we don't have the resources to be chasing people," said parks spokeswoman Adrienne Freeman. "Pressing a button is not the answer. Assessing risks is the answer."
Sequoia and Kings Canyon occupy 1,352 square miles of the Southern Sierra Nevada, 83% of which is designated wilderness. The jointly managed parks, visited by about 1.5 million people annually, contain the range's tallest peaks, including Mount Whitney, and the most remote river canyons.
Along with phones and GPS units, the introduction of satellite trackers and messengers for personal use raises the eternal debate over whether (or how much) technology belongs in the backcountry. And whether relying on computerized gadgets at the expense of tried-and-true backcountry skills somehow dilutes the experience.
"It should not replace basic skills like knowing how to use a map and compass or reading terrain," Fauth said. "And it shouldn't replace the basic reason why people go into the wilderness, which is about challenge and learning self reliance.
"Where's the sense of accomplishment if all you know how to do to get yourself out of trouble is push a button?"
How they work
Since purchasing his SPOT satellite messenger in June 2008, Steve Cosner never goes hiking or backpacking without it. Not only because he may need to summon help, but also to comfort his wife back home in Fresno when he's out rambling in the mountains.
Cosner's unit, the most popular in the marketplace, contains three function buttons labeled 911, Help and OK.
Press 911 and the GPS coordinates of your location are transmitted to the GEOS International Emergency Response Center, which in turn contacts local authorities.
Press Help or OK, and a pre-programmed e-mail or text message of your choosing is sent to up to 10 people. Help is designed for nonemergency assistance that could mean anything from "Send food" to "Pick me up a day early."
The OK button is to let folks on your list know all is well and also to provide a link of your location on Google Maps.
"It's a toy to tell folks where I am," Cosner said. "My wife likes to know. It gives her reassurance and keeps her anxiety in check."
But even messages meant to reassure can put rangers in a tricky position. This summer, the mother of an 18-year-old solo backpacker called the park and demanded they start searching for her son because he didn't press the OK button on his SPOT device that day as promised, rangers said.
(No search was initiated because the hiker was not 24 hours overdue. He did not require help.)
"What happens when we lose the self-reliance factor in exchange for this technology?" Freeman asked. "If junior doesn't push his button because he forgot or he dropped it or the batteries ran out, it shouldn't be our problem."
Sequoia district ranger Dan Pontbriand was more blunt: "The parks are not a baby-sitting service."
That isn't all. Pontbriand also believes, as do many in his line of work, that satellite-based gadgetry can delude people who aren't experienced in the backcountry into making poor decisions.
In essence, technology doesn't make the wilderness safer. Wilderness is wilderness. Meet it on its own terms.
"People take risks they wouldn't normally take because they think these devices will just bail them out," Pontbriand said. "They say, 'I'll try to cross this fast-moving creek because if I slip, I can just push a button and someone will rescue me.'
"That's absolutely the wrong decision-making process."
Precision in rescues
Until SPOT, a subsidiary of Globalstar Inc., hit store shelves last year, personal locator beacons (PLBs) weren't as functional and cost several hundred dollars.
SPOT retails for $149, plus $99 for the annual service activation. Each unit weighs 7.2 ounces (a lighter second-generation unit was unveiled this month) and waterproof, making them attractive to boaters as well as backpackers.
And they have proven useful. According to company spokesman Derek Moore, SPOT has initiated more than 325 rescues in 51 countries during its first 11/2 years on the market.
"Many of those have been life-saving," Moore said. "We receive a lot of feedback from search and rescue agencies thanking us for bringing rescuers to within 28 feet of the victim by providing their GPS coordinates."
The product's terms and conditions, which also appear on its Web site (http://www.findmespot.com), clearly state the 911 function is to be used only in a life-threatening situation or as a last resort.
But Moore acknowledged that hasn't always been the case.
"With any safety device, the user needs to understand its functionality and intended use," he said. "People have to ultimately be responsible for themselves. The technology is there to enhance your experience and provide additional safety, but it's meant as a backup plan."
According to Randy Coffman of Shaver Lake, a retired national park ranger and search and rescue expert, no electronic gadget can ever replace backcountry basics like knowing how to use a map and compass, carrying a signal mirror or the ability to read terrain and conditions.
After all, it's wilderness. Batteries go dead, stuff has a tendency to break or become lost and rescue helicopters don't fly in bad weather. Even SPOT only transmits when the unit's antenna has a line-of-sight with a Globalstar satellite, which might not be the case if you happened to be at the bottom of a canyon.
"When people use these devices correctly and appropriately, it can help create a safe buffer for them," Coffman said. "But it should never be their sole reliance. It's just a tool in the box, not a magic answer."
Saturday, Oct. 17, 2009
By Marek Warszawski / The Fresno Bee
Saving yourself from danger in the wilderness used to require skill. Also plenty of effort.
Now, all it takes is the touch of a finger.
Press button. Distress call transmitted. Authorities notified. Help on the way.
When used correctly, personal locator beacons and satellite trackers greatly assist search-and-rescue efforts by providing exact GPS coordinates for a person who is lost or injured.
But as more people take these devices into the backcountry, more people are using them irresponsibly, say rangers at Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks. Too often they decide to push a button instead of using their heads.
"We've had more illegitimate distress calls this summer than ever before, thanks to these gizmos," said wilderness coordinator Gregg Fauth.
Among the examples from this summer:
A Pacific Crest Trail hiker, frightened during a lightning storm, transmitted two 911 calls on her personal satellite messenger. A widespread search ensued, only for a sheriff to find her in Lone Pine several days later. She neglected to tell anyone she had gotten out.
Barely a mile from the trailhead, a Boy Scout troop sent a 911 emergency call because someone had sprained an ankle.
A 68-year-old-woman, backpacking solo in a remote section of the parks, sent an ambiguous "Help" message to her husband 15 times over a 12-hour period after falling and hitting her head. The woman never stopped moving, sending rangers on a needless chase, before she exited the wilderness on her own.
"We're going to respond, but we don't have the resources to be chasing people," said parks spokeswoman Adrienne Freeman. "Pressing a button is not the answer. Assessing risks is the answer."
Sequoia and Kings Canyon occupy 1,352 square miles of the Southern Sierra Nevada, 83% of which is designated wilderness. The jointly managed parks, visited by about 1.5 million people annually, contain the range's tallest peaks, including Mount Whitney, and the most remote river canyons.
Along with phones and GPS units, the introduction of satellite trackers and messengers for personal use raises the eternal debate over whether (or how much) technology belongs in the backcountry. And whether relying on computerized gadgets at the expense of tried-and-true backcountry skills somehow dilutes the experience.
"It should not replace basic skills like knowing how to use a map and compass or reading terrain," Fauth said. "And it shouldn't replace the basic reason why people go into the wilderness, which is about challenge and learning self reliance.
"Where's the sense of accomplishment if all you know how to do to get yourself out of trouble is push a button?"
How they work
Since purchasing his SPOT satellite messenger in June 2008, Steve Cosner never goes hiking or backpacking without it. Not only because he may need to summon help, but also to comfort his wife back home in Fresno when he's out rambling in the mountains.
Cosner's unit, the most popular in the marketplace, contains three function buttons labeled 911, Help and OK.
Press 911 and the GPS coordinates of your location are transmitted to the GEOS International Emergency Response Center, which in turn contacts local authorities.
Press Help or OK, and a pre-programmed e-mail or text message of your choosing is sent to up to 10 people. Help is designed for nonemergency assistance that could mean anything from "Send food" to "Pick me up a day early."
The OK button is to let folks on your list know all is well and also to provide a link of your location on Google Maps.
"It's a toy to tell folks where I am," Cosner said. "My wife likes to know. It gives her reassurance and keeps her anxiety in check."
But even messages meant to reassure can put rangers in a tricky position. This summer, the mother of an 18-year-old solo backpacker called the park and demanded they start searching for her son because he didn't press the OK button on his SPOT device that day as promised, rangers said.
(No search was initiated because the hiker was not 24 hours overdue. He did not require help.)
"What happens when we lose the self-reliance factor in exchange for this technology?" Freeman asked. "If junior doesn't push his button because he forgot or he dropped it or the batteries ran out, it shouldn't be our problem."
Sequoia district ranger Dan Pontbriand was more blunt: "The parks are not a baby-sitting service."
That isn't all. Pontbriand also believes, as do many in his line of work, that satellite-based gadgetry can delude people who aren't experienced in the backcountry into making poor decisions.
In essence, technology doesn't make the wilderness safer. Wilderness is wilderness. Meet it on its own terms.
"People take risks they wouldn't normally take because they think these devices will just bail them out," Pontbriand said. "They say, 'I'll try to cross this fast-moving creek because if I slip, I can just push a button and someone will rescue me.'
"That's absolutely the wrong decision-making process."
Precision in rescues
Until SPOT, a subsidiary of Globalstar Inc., hit store shelves last year, personal locator beacons (PLBs) weren't as functional and cost several hundred dollars.
SPOT retails for $149, plus $99 for the annual service activation. Each unit weighs 7.2 ounces (a lighter second-generation unit was unveiled this month) and waterproof, making them attractive to boaters as well as backpackers.
And they have proven useful. According to company spokesman Derek Moore, SPOT has initiated more than 325 rescues in 51 countries during its first 11/2 years on the market.
"Many of those have been life-saving," Moore said. "We receive a lot of feedback from search and rescue agencies thanking us for bringing rescuers to within 28 feet of the victim by providing their GPS coordinates."
The product's terms and conditions, which also appear on its Web site (http://www.findmespot.com), clearly state the 911 function is to be used only in a life-threatening situation or as a last resort.
But Moore acknowledged that hasn't always been the case.
"With any safety device, the user needs to understand its functionality and intended use," he said. "People have to ultimately be responsible for themselves. The technology is there to enhance your experience and provide additional safety, but it's meant as a backup plan."
According to Randy Coffman of Shaver Lake, a retired national park ranger and search and rescue expert, no electronic gadget can ever replace backcountry basics like knowing how to use a map and compass, carrying a signal mirror or the ability to read terrain and conditions.
After all, it's wilderness. Batteries go dead, stuff has a tendency to break or become lost and rescue helicopters don't fly in bad weather. Even SPOT only transmits when the unit's antenna has a line-of-sight with a Globalstar satellite, which might not be the case if you happened to be at the bottom of a canyon.
"When people use these devices correctly and appropriately, it can help create a safe buffer for them," Coffman said. "But it should never be their sole reliance. It's just a tool in the box, not a magic answer."
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nonotGuides: 107 | Official Routes: 108Triplogs Last: 19 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 7 | Last: 18 d
- Joined: Nov 18 2005 11:52 pm
- City, State: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
Meh, there are probably dozens of hikers going down the Bright Angel each day woefully unequipped. The only difference is that the spot call can tie up resources of helicopters and several SAR rescuers for days instead of a couple of rangers for a few hours.
I think that all SAR operations should stop. If you can't make it out on your own, you die.
I'd like to see this idea of personal responsibility be applied towards everything, but our government wouldn't allow anyone to promote responsibility, after all if they did that they couldn't collect so much in taxes for "bailing out" a society full of inept sheeple.
I think that all SAR operations should stop. If you can't make it out on your own, you die.
I'd like to see this idea of personal responsibility be applied towards everything, but our government wouldn't allow anyone to promote responsibility, after all if they did that they couldn't collect so much in taxes for "bailing out" a society full of inept sheeple.
http://hikearizona.com/garmin_maps.php
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, ankle-twisting, HAZmaster crushing ROCKS!!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
Hike Arizona it is full of striking, biting, stabbing, venomous wildlife!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, ankle-twisting, HAZmaster crushing ROCKS!!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
Hike Arizona it is full of striking, biting, stabbing, venomous wildlife!
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joebartelsGuides: 264 | Official Routes: 226Triplogs Last: 7 d | RS: 1960Water Reports 1Y: 14 | Last: 9 d
- Joined: Nov 20 1996 12:00 pm
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
( Unfortunately ) The way this is headed a member of a rescue team is going to have to die on a false call before any action is taken.
- joe
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PaleoRobGuides: 171 | Official Routes: 78Triplogs Last: 445 d | RS: 24Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: 832 d
- Joined: Apr 03 2006 12:21 pm
- City, State: Pocatello, ID
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Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
I don't think that's the answer. The little girl who accidentally falls over the rim and breaks her legs shouldn't become condor bait by default.nonot wrote:I think that all SAR operations should stop. If you can't make it out on your own, you die.
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te_waGuides: 3 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 1,668 d | RS: 2Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: 1,867 d
- Joined: Aug 22 2003 9:16 pm
- City, State: Mesa
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
..but she should become condor bait by sundown..
squirrel!
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nonotGuides: 107 | Official Routes: 108Triplogs Last: 19 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 7 | Last: 18 d
- Joined: Nov 18 2005 11:52 pm
- City, State: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
Fine, her parents who inattentively let her fall over the edge have to jump off and take her place.PageRob wrote:I don't think that's the answer. The little girl who accidentally falls over the rim and breaks her legs shouldn't become condor bait by default.nonot wrote:I think that all SAR operations should stop. If you can't make it out on your own, you die.
Seriously, if you fall off the rim, except in a few places, that's body recovery. Your scenario isn't even a SAR case.
http://hikearizona.com/garmin_maps.php
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, ankle-twisting, HAZmaster crushing ROCKS!!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
Hike Arizona it is full of striking, biting, stabbing, venomous wildlife!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, ankle-twisting, HAZmaster crushing ROCKS!!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
Hike Arizona it is full of striking, biting, stabbing, venomous wildlife!
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hikeazGuides: 6 | Official Routes: 0Triplogs Last: 1,012 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: 1,011 d
- Joined: May 13 2002 10:07 am
- City, State: Tempe, AZ
- Contact:
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
You mean like in Sedona - the helo PMT perished - folks from New York can't be bothered with taking water up onto Bear Mountain, but they remembered their cell phone.....joe bartels wrote:( Unfortunately ) The way this is headed a member of a rescue team is going to have to die on a false call before any action is taken.
"The censorship method ... is that of handing the job over to some frail and erring mortal man, and making him omnipotent on the assumption that his official status will make him infallible and omniscient."
George Bernard Shaw
George Bernard Shaw
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ssk44Guides: 20 | Official Routes: 3Triplogs Last: 12 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
- Joined: Mar 31 2008 8:48 pm
- City, State: Gilbert, AZ
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
I own a “Spot” and take it everywhere I go. My Spot gives family members great peace of mind while I am out in the backcountry. I use the “ok” button during my lunch break on every trip. I love my Spot and have very few complaints after one year of use. My Spot is not a personal license for stupidity. Crud happens and when you typically hike remote areas by yourself, having a Spot inspires tremendous confidence. That added confidence is especially appreciated when rattlesnakes are out. It allows me to relax a little more and enjoy my trip. Even though I carry a Spot, I still have great respect for the possible dangers involved with backcountry hiking and consider every step a calculated risk. Just because I carry a Spot does NOT mean that I want to use it. For 75% of my adventures, my Spot is essentially my hiking partner. It’s my lifeline and I won’t leave home without it.
It is truly a shame that stupid people are abusing such a great peace of modern technology. It is really a sign of the times. We live in an age where common sense no longer exists and people do not feel they should be held responsible for their own actions. We are training society that if you get in trouble, someone will always bail you out. That is a slippery slope. Common sense should tell a person that if I don’t have sufficient skills or equipment, I should not hike into isolated areas regardless of the existence of satellite locator technology. Common sense is something that is learned an unfortunately know one seems to be teaching that skill any more. I really do not think there is an easy answer for the current problems associated with misuse of satellite locator technology. We must remember that the problem is not the technology, but rather the person holding it…
It is truly a shame that stupid people are abusing such a great peace of modern technology. It is really a sign of the times. We live in an age where common sense no longer exists and people do not feel they should be held responsible for their own actions. We are training society that if you get in trouble, someone will always bail you out. That is a slippery slope. Common sense should tell a person that if I don’t have sufficient skills or equipment, I should not hike into isolated areas regardless of the existence of satellite locator technology. Common sense is something that is learned an unfortunately know one seems to be teaching that skill any more. I really do not think there is an easy answer for the current problems associated with misuse of satellite locator technology. We must remember that the problem is not the technology, but rather the person holding it…

MATTHEW 11:28-30 / PSALM 84:1-2
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rally_toadGuides: 22 | Official Routes: 3Triplogs Last: 830 d | RS: 60Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
- Joined: May 17 2007 8:06 pm
- City, State: CA
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
In response to nonot:
What about the case of Lon McAdams? What did he do wrong? In reality he did everything right, he just had an unfortunate fall. There is no way he would have made it out without SAR, even though he did everything right in his situation. He was an experienced backpacker, he knew the risks, he had even been in Rough Canyon before, and he did everything right after his fall as well. So you would just leave him out there?
What about the case of Lon McAdams? What did he do wrong? In reality he did everything right, he just had an unfortunate fall. There is no way he would have made it out without SAR, even though he did everything right in his situation. He was an experienced backpacker, he knew the risks, he had even been in Rough Canyon before, and he did everything right after his fall as well. So you would just leave him out there?
"Who are you guys??!!" -Farnsworth
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Al_HikesAZGuides: 11 | Official Routes: 14Triplogs Last: 1,038 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: 3,177 d
- Joined: May 16 2005 1:01 pm
- City, State: Scottsdale, AZ
- Contact:
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
Great comments. There is a dearth of common sense these days. I carry a PLB on serious backcountry trips. The standards in place for PLBs and EPIRBS require that they be registered with the US Coast Guard and the owner is repeately reminded that activation in a non-life-threatened situation is subject to a $5,000 fine. Sounds like SPOT needs similar standards.ssk44 wrote: I really do not think there is an easy answer for the current problems associated with misuse of satellite locator technology. We must remember that the problem is not the technology, but rather the person holding it…
Anybody can make a hike harder. The real skill comes in making the hike easier.
life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes. Andy Rooney
life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes. Andy Rooney
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ssk44Guides: 20 | Official Routes: 3Triplogs Last: 12 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
- Joined: Mar 31 2008 8:48 pm
- City, State: Gilbert, AZ
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
That would make people think twice before pushing the button...Al_HikesAZ wrote:The standards in place for PLBs and EPIRBS require that they be registered with the US Coast Guard and the owner is repeately reminded that activation in a non-life-threatened situation is subject to a $5,000 fine.
MATTHEW 11:28-30 / PSALM 84:1-2
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joebartelsGuides: 264 | Official Routes: 226Triplogs Last: 7 d | RS: 1960Water Reports 1Y: 14 | Last: 9 d
- Joined: Nov 20 1996 12:00 pm
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
Especially if it is linked to direct debit!
- joe
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nonotGuides: 107 | Official Routes: 108Triplogs Last: 19 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 7 | Last: 18 d
- Joined: Nov 18 2005 11:52 pm
- City, State: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
Lon's case is an incident where SAR helped someone who truly needed it. However, Lon was also smart and didn't necessarily need SAR to save him. He had left detailed plans and his wife knew where he was and if there was no SAR, she likely could have rounded up friends and family to go get Lon. Yes, it would have been more difficult without a helicopter to get him back to the trailhead. Also, another difficult and painful option, Lon could have splinted his leg and made a slow and painful butt-scoot back to a trailhead himself over a period of 2-3 days.rally_toad wrote:In response to nonot:
What about the case of Lon McAdams? What did he do wrong? In reality he did everything right, he just had an unfortunate fall. There is no way he would have made it out without SAR, even though he did everything right in his situation. He was an experienced backpacker, he knew the risks, he had even been in Rough Canyon before, and he did everything right after his fall as well. So you would just leave him out there?
Wilderness is not about being right or wrong, it is about consequences. Society today has taught people there are no consequences. Taxpayers pay lots of money for these SAR cases each year. (Helicopters and boats are not cheap.) Given the people it's being spent on, I'd rather see that money go to more useful things, like reimbursing the losses of already wealthy bankers because they all started crying that they didn't understand the concept of "risk" or maybe we should spend another couple billion for welfare for those too lazy to work.

Expecting to be rescued means you don't have an understanding of risk. Risk means you can lose everything. Risk doesn't mean you have a bad day but everything will be OK the next because the US government will come and save you. If you don't understand the risks of hiking to extremely remote places, stick to hiking squaw peak.
Note: SSAR is entirely funded by donations AFAIK.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/outpost ... ctive.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Cliffhang ... a015933594
http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/bc/sars.htm
http://hikearizona.com/garmin_maps.php
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, ankle-twisting, HAZmaster crushing ROCKS!!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
Hike Arizona it is full of striking, biting, stabbing, venomous wildlife!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, ankle-twisting, HAZmaster crushing ROCKS!!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
Hike Arizona it is full of striking, biting, stabbing, venomous wildlife!
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GrasshopperGuides: 48 | Official Routes: 143Triplogs Last: 89 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: 813 d
- Joined: Dec 28 2006 5:06 pm
- City, State: Scottsdale, AZ
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
I think that SPOT does need similar standards. From reading Letty's below post, I would not be surprised if the US Parks Service doesn't soon push for this. I know that SPOT now offers an insurance policy that can be purchased for coverage of a rescue if the registered SPOT owner was billed for the rescue.Al_HikesAZ wrote:PLBs and EPIRBS require that they be registered with the US Coast Guard and the owner is repeately reminded that activation in a non-life-threatened situation is subject to a $5,000 fine. Sounds like SPOT needs similar standards.
Agreed.. and that is the way it should be.ssk44 wrote:That would make people think twice before pushing the button...
(Outside.. "there is No Place Like It!!")
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joebartelsGuides: 264 | Official Routes: 226Triplogs Last: 7 d | RS: 1960Water Reports 1Y: 14 | Last: 9 d
- Joined: Nov 20 1996 12:00 pm
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
Earlier today I was reading on wiki that the insurance is a mere six dollars a year. They must be selling these things by the boat load. Heck, out in the middle of nowhere I'd be pushing for bottled water at that price 

- joe
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rally_toadGuides: 22 | Official Routes: 3Triplogs Last: 830 d | RS: 60Water Reports 1Y: 0 | Last: never
- Joined: May 17 2007 8:06 pm
- City, State: CA
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
In response to nonot:
Yes, he could have butt scooted out of Rough Canyon, and up the Frogs tanks trail and then out to reavis trailhead, or perhaps up the JF trail? heck Im sure he coulda made it out to First water
How is his family going to find his exact location? They instinctively know to look in Rough Canyon? He was out ther for over a week, Im sure his itenerary had him going all throughout the supes. They would not have found him quickly on a foot search by a dozen of his friends.
Just ask Lon, Im sure he would be the first to tell you that he would be dead without SAR, even though he did all the right things, and knew the risks. Im sure he had no expectation of being rescued. And Im pretty sure that your position on SAR would change if you had a broken kneecap in Rough Canyon, we all understand the risks here, but it doesnt mean that if something happens to us we should be left to die because others are irresponsible.
The logical thing to do in this case is to not respond to the 2nd call for help. Or mandate that after the first false alarm they are removed and no longer permitted to be in the backcountry.
Compared to other things that governments have wasted money on, SAR is cheap, and is not a waste of money if it saves the life of even one person who is legitimately in trouble because of circumstances beyond their control, like in the case of Lon McAdams.
Yes, he could have butt scooted out of Rough Canyon, and up the Frogs tanks trail and then out to reavis trailhead, or perhaps up the JF trail? heck Im sure he coulda made it out to First water

How is his family going to find his exact location? They instinctively know to look in Rough Canyon? He was out ther for over a week, Im sure his itenerary had him going all throughout the supes. They would not have found him quickly on a foot search by a dozen of his friends.
Just ask Lon, Im sure he would be the first to tell you that he would be dead without SAR, even though he did all the right things, and knew the risks. Im sure he had no expectation of being rescued. And Im pretty sure that your position on SAR would change if you had a broken kneecap in Rough Canyon, we all understand the risks here, but it doesnt mean that if something happens to us we should be left to die because others are irresponsible.
The logical thing to do in this case is to not respond to the 2nd call for help. Or mandate that after the first false alarm they are removed and no longer permitted to be in the backcountry.
Compared to other things that governments have wasted money on, SAR is cheap, and is not a waste of money if it saves the life of even one person who is legitimately in trouble because of circumstances beyond their control, like in the case of Lon McAdams.
"Who are you guys??!!" -Farnsworth
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joebartelsGuides: 264 | Official Routes: 226Triplogs Last: 7 d | RS: 1960Water Reports 1Y: 14 | Last: 9 d
- Joined: Nov 20 1996 12:00 pm
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
excellent pointrally_toad wrote:Compared to other things that governments have wasted money on, SAR is cheap
- joe
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nonotGuides: 107 | Official Routes: 108Triplogs Last: 19 d | RS: 0Water Reports 1Y: 7 | Last: 18 d
- Joined: Nov 18 2005 11:52 pm
- City, State: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Beauty is skin deep, but stupid goes to the bone...
Ah, the old, "we already waste trillions each year, what's a half billion more wasted?" argument. You'd make a great politician. I'm glad those folks enjoyed their $40000 bottled water, let's do that for everyone!joe bartels wrote:excellent pointrally_toad wrote:Compared to other things that governments have wasted money on, SAR is cheap

http://hikearizona.com/garmin_maps.php
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, ankle-twisting, HAZmaster crushing ROCKS!!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
Hike Arizona it is full of striking, biting, stabbing, venomous wildlife!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, ankle-twisting, HAZmaster crushing ROCKS!!
Hike Arizona it is full of sharp, pointy, shin-stabbing, skin-shredding plants!
Hike Arizona it is full of striking, biting, stabbing, venomous wildlife!
contribute to this member driven resource
ie: RS > Save/Share after hikes

