Should Hikers Pay for Their Own Rescues? New Legislation In Hawaii Argues Yes.

[Pivo]

State legislators in Hawaii are fast-tracking a bill that would authorize the state to seek reimbursement from hikers who need rescue after venturing onto closed trails. But not everyone agrees it’s the right move.

https://www.backpacker.com/news-and-eve ... scue-bill/

[Alston_Neal]

Are the copter rides here billed?

[xsproutx]

@Alston_Neal
Assuming "here" is AZ, then no; SAR has no charge and if they think a chopper is needed, they work with local government to make it happen. There can be some nuance to that as private medical choppers cost money. So you could have a scenario where SAR rescues a person on foot, gets them to the TH, then determines they need to get to the hospital quicker than they'd be able to make happen on the ground so they call a private medical airlift and THAT you will get charged for.

[DbleDutch]

Key word "closed" trail. Implies area, weather, etc is unsafe. Ignoring the notice is the persons choice and direct violation of the authority closing the trail.
I have been a recipient of a free helicopter ride. In AZ if you refuse a rescue, DPS has authority to arrest you and complete the rescue. They will not return later, time is now. During our rescue, a CO couple were refusing rescue, as CO does charge for rescues. I do not know if it went to arrest, but DPS is very persuasive.
I value our system and have seen it in action several times when it is needed. It is frustrating to see the Phx Mtn rescues that jeopardizes the responders.
Thanks SAR in each AZ County.

[big_load]

Key word "closed" trail.

Even then, there are gray areas. Did somebody end up on closed trial after becoming blocked by natural disaster, affected by weather, trying to get out quickly due to injury or medical emergency, getting lost?

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

Yes. For ALL rescues.

[chumley]

Yes. For ALL rescues.

Limited to humans exclusively involved in the act of hiking? Or ALL rescues including motor vehicle collisions, structure fires, flooding, kidnapping, plane crashes...?

[ShatteredArm]

@TooOld2HikeQ
I'm surprised someone with the close calls you've shared here would hold this view.

[Jim]

In AZ if you refuse a rescue, DPS has authority to arrest you and complete the rescue. They will not return later, time is now. During our rescue, a CO couple were refusing rescue, as CO does charge for rescues. I do not know if it went to arrest, but DPS is very persuasive.

What would have caused this? There is a pretty big difference between someone capable of walking out after someone else panicked and called for help, vs someone who is just embarrassed or afraid or whatever, after a legitimate rescue call was placed and DPS responded. A few years ago a highly intoxicated individual called 911 for what, I don't even know, because they got scared while out with some other people in Saguaro NP. No rescue was ever needed, but I could see similar occurring in another area.

Certainly, closed trails or areas are different from open areas, and I have felt that charging for rescues on Piestewa when closed for extreme heat over 100, or whatever level is the threshold, would be an acceptable way to enforce the closure so long as the city looked the other way on people perfectly capable of hiking it in 110. Joe, for example.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@ShatteredArm
It's my choice (and a foolish one) to put myself in danger by hiking where wild animals roam; where I could slip & fall and break a bone, or where I could die of thirst; etc. And for what? For fun?

It's not your responsibility to pay for my bad/poor decisions/mistakes. Nor do I expect you to.

[TooOld2Hike_EP]

@chumley
Yes, ALL rescues.

As a fundamental matter, it is not the purpose of government to be our mommies/nannies. Some towns have volunteer or private firemen, and this is how it should be.

As a secondary matter, while my heart goes out to innocents who have come into trouble not of their making (and I try to help them when I can (but kidnaping is a criminal matter, and that IS one purpose of government)), my heart does not go out to those (including myself) who engage in "risky" behavior.

That might include those who build their houses in a known flood plain (floods), or who cook meth in their apartment (structure fires), or who text while driving or drive drunk.

Imagine how many fewer people might try to cross a running wash in their cars if they knew for sure that no one would come to rescue them.

But I fear that we have created a culture where people don't take responsibility for themselves, and figure/depend on the government to save them. Which leads to more bad decisions, since there are no lasting consequences.

I don't believe in The Theory of Evolution. But I do believe in The Darwin Award.

There is reaping what you've sown.

[chumley]

@TooOld2HikeQ I was contemplating asking about CAT or a manufacturing defect causing an aviation crash, but honestly I love your reply. It's perfect!

[ShatteredArm]

But I fear that we have created a culture where people don't take responsibility for themselves, and figure/depend on the government to save them. Which leads to more bad decisions, since there are no lasting consequences.

Is that how you explain the poor decisions that almost got you into serious trouble?

I personally think people should take responsibility for themselves, but I'm also not an ideologue who thinks people should have to pay for accidents with their life. Saying "we should just let them die" isn't exactly the best look.

[Pivo]

CO does charge for rescues

Colorado doesn't charge for rescue. They do have voluntary nifty program that allows for reimbursement to the responding agencies of their out of pocket expenses. Colorado Outdoor Recreation Search and Rescue (CORSAR) Card. I have a five year card.

https://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/B ... escue.aspx

[xsproutx]

You know, that's it. I used to think society built on trying to operate for the greater good was pretty neat but I'm sold now. I hadn't thought about how a volunteer fire department could work for a metro of millions of people before but now I see that people would just bake them cakes and pay their bills out of the kindness of their little hearts. And if a person rolls their ankle on an innocent hike and has to get rescued but they don't have a ton of money in the bank and they then can't make rent and their children can't eat and they end up getting desperate enough that they think they need to rob a store to keep their kid's belly full? That's just the price we pay for not living in a nanny state!

[RedRoxx44]

I just finished reading several books on the early settlers crossing in Death Valley. The typical--- some died, most made it, with help of other individuals who took it upon themselves to help their fellow man and woman. Also typical, some good decisions, some bad decisions some survived and some paid the ultimate price. The strong survive and pass on their good genes ( hopefully). We have a lot of weak people now and in the past who also pass on their genes. As I have stated before all of this is just human history repeating itself on different scales. Our needs and requirements to survive might change on the modern definition but it is really just SOS.

[Jim]

https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/sessions ... B2543_.htm

Reading the bill is more interesting than the article.

The purpose of this Act is to require government entities to seek reimbursement for the expenses arising from the search and rescue of persons who ignore posted warnings, leave a hiking trail to enter a prohibited area, or hike on a trail that is closed to the public.
.......break here..........
(b) A government entity shall seek reimbursement for search or rescue expenses from all applicable persons or entities in section (a), if the need for the search or rescue was caused by the person searched for or rescued unreasonably disregarding their safety by:

(1) Ignoring reasonably posted warnings;

(2) Leaving a hiking trail and entering state, county, or private property that is closed to the public, and reasonable notice of the closure is posted; or

(3) Entering a hiking trail that is closed to the public and reasonable notice of the closure is posted."

I can't really argue with that. The bill cites similar legislation in a number of other states, as well.

It is vague, and one is left to assume that full costs associated with a rescue would be expected, but it in theory could be something like $1, although I doubt it. Does this take into account a demented person who wanders off and requires rescue? No idea. It seems clear to me that the intent of the law is to curtail the Instagram Set from ignoring closures intended either for their safety or to limit the risk and expense of public sector employees and therefore the state and it's citizens, so those online clout seekers can post that rad shot showing how bad pumpkin they are.

While I never supported the closures of Phoenix Parks due to heat, which has started (thankfully) since I left the Valley, I do understand the need for it at least from a financial perspective.

I wonder, if closures had a fine, and that fine was extreme but only enforced if rescue was required, would people object? Obviously, you can hike into the active lava field all you want, but since it was closed, if you get surrounded by lava and can't escape and then require a chopper airlift, the fine for violating the closure is basically the cost of the chopper ride. But hey, we have financing available at low low rates! 5%!

Like with pot legalization, I really regret voting to legalize. I wrongly thought of my moron friend from 25 years ago, arrested for paraphernalia in his car and having to call probation officers at random times to check in. He was a moron, but he was young. I assumed he would grow out of it. Now, I see grown men with kids getting high at Mather Amphitheater at the Grand Canyon, and 50 year old men smoking up all over the place. Had I known it would turn to widespread depravity, I would have voted for further draconian punishment. Public floggings!

My point is that too often we tend to think that people will be intelligent, well meaning, and have sound reasoning. That is very often not the case. Why should a budget strapped state raise taxes or have to allocate funds from other areas to rescue someone that knowingly and willing places themselves into peril requiring rescue? Most all of us agree that a fire department will respond to a structural fire and at public expense as we all pay in through property taxes and can all benefit, in theory. Test that theory! The same really can not be said of someone in the scenario I described with lava, as we have not all agreed that travel to a lava field is something we all think is reasonable and to be covered at public expense.

[CannondaleKid]

As I have stated before all of this is just human history repeating itself on different scales.

Speaking of that... I'm reading The Fourth Turning Is Here by Neil Howe, which explores the cyclical nature of history (roughly 80-year cycles, each with four turnings) and predicts a potential crisis between the present and 2030-2033.

[chumley]

I believe the movie version (and cinematic masterpiece) is Idiocracy.

[DbleDutch]

@Jim_H
We were 24 hours overdue for exiting Aravaipa due to flood waters. We were packed and moving towards W entrance with one water crossing done. We saw the DPS copter buzz the canyon, simply expected a well check fly-by but suddenly a DPS officer walked up to us and said we are evacuating you. Another group per DPS SAR and BLM Steward were from CO and not cooperative.
@Pivo
" CO charges" Sorry I did not speak this as known fact, but info from our SAR.