Icy Dirt Roads

[JoelHazelton]

I must preface this by saying I'm sorry for asking stupid questions... I've lived in Phoenix all my life and have very little inclement winter weather experience.

Because of the forecasted snow, I was considering going up to Coal Mine Canyon Sunday/Monday to see what it looks like with snow. The snow level is supposed to be at 6,000 ft and since the rim of it is at 5,800, I figure it might be worth a trip. I'm wondering about the road back... Apparently it's a nicely graded dirt road (according to the description) but I don't know how it would be with snow/ice on it. I don't have 4wd or front wheel drive. Would I be puitting myself in a precarious situation to do such a thing? The only time I've driven in snow was two years ago in March when it was snowing like crazy, all the way down to sunset point along the I-17. I drove up to Flagstaff and everybody was driving like 5mph and there were cops all over the place making sure we didn't kill ourselves.

Also, any tips on camping other than to dress warmly with lots of layers and bring a lot of coffee? ;)

[Hoffmaster]

You need to get out more, especially away from Phoenix.

I went to Coal Mine Canyon in August, and the road was in great shape, but I really didn't take too much notice of how it would be in worse weather conditions. It sounds like you'd have to worry about mud more than ice and snow. The best advice anyone could give you is to use your own judgement, since it would be impossible to comment on the road conditions without actually being there. If your car is at least front wheel drive, you'll probably be fine.

Camping up there is risky. You probably need a permit since most of the surrounding area is on the Navajo res. We only spent a short amount of time at Coal Mine Canyon, and then found ourselves in Utah at the end of the day. We had an awesome campsite in Valley of the Gods. I think that is BLM land. Nobody around to tell you what you can and can't do, and where you can and can't camp.

[JoelHazelton]

You need to get out more, especially away from Phoenix.

Yeah, I know... But driving places costs money and the Superstitions are awful close.

My truck is not front wheel drive.

I figured it would be risky to camp there, probably going to do some research. Anybody have more specific info on what I would need to do about that?

[big_load]

Depending on the road and the snow, it could be anywhere from no problem to almost impassable. I drive in snow 2-3 days per week in winter, so it doesn't bother me much, but I would hesitate take on such conditions without sufficient experience. The last time I drove on a snowy dirt road in AZ, I was in a front-wheel drive rental car and I passed two 4wd pickups that had just slid off into a ditch because they were going too fast.

[JoelHazelton]

Stupid differing factors always have to have such an effect on the outcome... Why can't all roads be the same?

It might be a better idea to scratch the idea and go somewhere paved, like the West Fork. If for no other reason then to at least prevent my girlfriend from worrying herself to death. I still want to see Coal Mine Canyon with snow...

[Jeffshadows]

Your biggest issue would be mud and holes that are frozen over by a thin layer of ice. Do you have tire chains?

[JoelHazelton]

Do you have tire chains?

Nope

[rushthezeppelin]

. Do you have tire chains?

LMAO you didn't seriously expect a flat-lander to say yes to that did you : P

[JoelHazelton]

I think I've decided not to bother with the risk. Something with a little easier access, such as West Fork or Prime and Vail Lakes, is going to be the plan.

[big_load]

Your biggest issue would be mud and holes that are frozen over by a thin layer of ice.

Those are bad for sure. Put them on a hill and you have some real fun.

[chumley]

It makes little difference if a road is paved or dirt as far as snow goes. If the road is snowpacked then what's under it doesn't matter. A well-graded dirt road is usually not the kind that turns into a muddy rutty mess when it gets wet. I would personally rather drive in a raging blizzard when its 20-degrees out than on a few inches of snow-packed road when its 35 or 40 degrees.

At the lower elevations near the rain/snow line, I find that the first inch or two of snow is no problem because when you drive over it, you basically melt the snow and are getting all your traction from the dirt below. But if you get into an area that's a bit cooler (more shade, or even just 100 feet higher in elevation), you might find yourself in several inches of wet snow that then gets packed down when you drive over it. If you're making first tracks, its usually no problem as long as you don't stop somewhere precarious, but if others driven there before you and packed it down, driving can be extremely slippery, especially on inclines. I've seen plenty of 4wd trucks slide off the road in what seemed like flat parts of road because the snow was packed down and slippery and because they lost momentum. 2wd with chains can be better than 4wd without. But its something you learn with experience. I wouldn't suggest educating yourself on distant lonely roads without another support vehicle in your group.

If you have a 2wd truck (rear-wheel drive) your biggest problem is lack of weight on the rear wheels. I used to load up my bed with sandbags or cinder blocks to put weight on my rear wheels and get extra traction in the snow.

Plus, by Sunday/Monday, it looks like the snow level will be coming way down. I've seen some forecasts drop it to 2,500 feet Monday night. So, I'm guessing it might be snowier there than you might think. I'm thinking you should wait this one out for a week or two.

[Grasshopper]

Plus, by Sunday/Monday, it looks like the snow level will be coming way down. I've seen some forecasts drop it to 2,500 feet Monday night.

Chumley, I'm looking forward to seeing you one day on our local CBS-Channel 5 doing the weather reports, replacing their existisng :roll: weatherman!

[Jeffshadows]

Snow is a master obstacle-hider...Far better than pine needles and sand combined.

[JoelHazelton]

In response to chumley:

Great advice! Thanks Chumley!

[chumley]

Chumley, I'm looking forward to seeing you one day on our local CBS-Channel 5 doing the weather reports, replacing their existisng :roll: weatherman!

Thanks Hank. But I assure you I'd be no replacement for an actual meteorologist like Sean McLaughlin or Bill Bellis. But I am always quite leery of many of the "weather babes" (men too) who report weather as a stepping stone to their tv career.

I actually liked Ed Phillips when he was on because he's lived in Arizona forever, and clearly spends time outdoors and in some of the less-visited corners of the state. It helps to have a little bit of local knowledge when forecasting. But TV forecasters usually cater to their target audience, which is people who want to know what their kids need to wear to school tomorrow in the big city.

The National Weather Service is a much better place to get specifics about what's going to happen even in places where nobody lives. And I read their forecast discussions a lot, which helps. I've also lived here for almost 20 years now, and have a pretty good database of history in my head as to how certain types of storms affect certain areas across our state. (My favorite was a 2-day storm that dumped 52 inches of snow in Heber back in the early 90s. That doesn't happen everyday. I had to check it out. Managed to get my Ford Escort (with chains) buried in a snowbank on the Young Road. Ahhh... memories.)

[JoelHazelton]

Plus, by Sunday/Monday, it looks like the snow level will be coming way down. I've seen some forecasts drop it to 2,500 feet Monday night.

Chumley, I'm looking forward to seeing you one day on our local CBS-Channel 5 doing the weather reports, replacing their existisng :roll: weatherman!

I"M looking forward to snow levels dropping to 2,500 feet!

[chumley]

Once or twice a winter when the snow level drops that low is when its fun to hike Pinnacle Peak and some of the trails in the McDowells or near Carefree. A couple of years ago I went mtn biking on the powerline trail NE of Pima/Dynamite. There was more than 8" of snow at the top of the trail by Bartlett Lake Rd. Never seen that much snow that low down before!

[djui5]

You need to get out more, especially away from Phoenix.

Yeah, I know... But driving places costs money and the Superstitions are awful close.

[PaleoRob]

Frozen dirt and sand roads are much better to drive on than plain dirt and sand - the road is cohesive and is generally very easy to drive on. However, adding snow to the top of a frozen road makes things much worse than normal. Snow is harder to get traction in, and as others have mentioned, it hides obstacles both large and small under it. If there is no snow on the ground but the temp is below freezing, you'll probably be alright. If there's light snow, you'll probably be alright. If it is snowing heavily and/or more than a few inches on the ground, you should probably not do it. Also, pick up a pair of chains before you leave town - it can be a lifesaver.