Safe spring water / giardia

[chumley]

A search of the forums shows that the last time this subject was discussed in depth was about 6 years ago, and I thought it might be worth a re-visit.

Basically, I feel a little bit skeptical about how it is "advertised" that we must treat absolutely every drop of water found in nature before drinking it due to giardia.

I understand that water that is subject to outside contamination such as wildlife, cattle, or human interaction is highly suspect. You won't find me drinking water from the Salt River.

But what's wrong with water that comes from a mountain spring flowing from some rocks. The spring at Horton Creek is an example. I've drank directly from it several times with no ill effects. There are other springs which come from rocky caves that I would personally consider to be quite safe. If I think that a spring may have a source that includes surface water from nearby, then I would be less inclined to drink from that source.

I frequently swim in Arizona's lakes, and have on more than one occasion floated down the lower Salt River. I've never become ill. Is is possible that my immune system has just fought off the protozoa that I most certainly have ingested during my water activities? Do we just live in such a ridiculously lawsuit prone and overcautious society (These sleeping pills may cause drowsiness...) that the threat from giardia is vastly overstated?

Or is the "ounce of prevention" (filtering/purifying the water) is so easy that its not worth the risk, no matter how small it is?

I've been reading about this today in anticipation for an upcoming backpacking trip in the Sierras, and I know of some available springs along the trail that are within 100 feet of a ridgeline at over 10,000 feet, and can't imagine that this water could possibly be contaminated with giardia cysts.

Or maybe I could make giardia cyst stew for dinner and it wouldn't affect me anyway. I have no idea.

Anybody have insightful thoughts or opinions to add here? General information, or information specific to Arizona springs or other natural water sources would be welcome.

[SuperstitionGuy]

I have never had a problem drinking directly from the spring north of the Reavis Ranch orchard and I did it a lot while working there as a USFS volunteer. However I did find a fluke one time in the Mescal Pit spring in Tortilla Canyon and it is almost never visited by humans. Both of these springs flow from underground water so go figure?

[writelots]

I suppose from my perspective, it's usually easier to be safe than sorry. Giardia isn't the only thing that'll mess you up in some of the water sources in AZ - though it is probably the most prevalent threat. Just watched a TV show about cryptosporidium, didn't seem like that was much fun, either.

I've had water straight from springs in the mountains, and in Paria canyon. However, I generally only do that when other circumstances (clogged or missing filter) made it an issue of not drinking or drinking untreated water. Otherwise, it's just a part of my experience to be careful. I wish I had a system which was stronger or more accustomed to water in it's natural state, but I just didn't get to choose that one at birth.

[te_wa]

you mean a fluke worm?

i bring micropur, its not even an "ounce" of protection.. 20 tablets will treat more than a weekend's outing and weigh about .3oz (8-10 grams)
you'll note that even tho you may not find giardia and crypto in snow/ice, there may still be hundreds of other nasties there, like harmful algae and bacteria (not to be confused with a type of bacteria that actually forms snow, Pseudomonas syringae, which is harmless. Even in Horton Spring there may be 2-10,000 organisms per cubic centimeter, not all harmful and may have none harmful. but the existance of flukes and tapeworms and molds and bacillus of varying types is enough to get me to drop that tiny tablet in all water sources, regardless how deep the aquifer is!


a "third ounce" of prevention is worth it to me. ymmv.

[Jeffshadows]

This is a difficult topic to discuss without presenting a lecture or sounding preachy. I know a trail runner who routinely drinks straight from springs and has done so for decades to no ill effect; conversely, I've also had diarrhea after drinking from a spring once and I know that can be a common story.

Usually, the closer to the source, the better; the higher on the mountain the spring, the better; and the colder and clearer, the better. In the end, the only real way to be "safe" is to disinfect and the best method for broad-spectrum disinfection remains bringing it to a boil which does nothing for taste and takes time and fuel. Really you just have to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?"

[RedRoxx44]

I watched some PBS special years ago where hikers routinely drank from a High Sierras spring that seemed safe from any contamination. A ranger walked the PBS guy up a hill, did a little scrambling, then entered a low cave with a stream flowing in it that at the entrance went underground and surfaced below at the spring. They walked back in the cave about 100 feet and the ranger shined his flashlight and you could see the water slowly gurgling through a huge mound of bat guano. So I hope that water went thru enough rock to filter it adequately.

I've drunk from springs unfiltered, or from snow melt. Don't always do it. Depends on surroundings. A lot of springs in Utah are contaminated with heavy metals. I usually treat chemically. I boil my water to rehydrate my meals or for morning coffee.
So far so good.

[Ckzona]

I routinely just drink from the springs and even upper streams and have yet to have an ill effect from it. 80% of the time though I will boil it or treat it. For example. SOme spring on the Pinalenos I drank from at probaly 9500ft and never got sick. Same with springs on the chiricahuas and white mountains. Its just your choice I guess.

[Hikergirl81]

"Do I feel lucky?"

Do you feel lucky... or do you have a stock of metronidazole? ;)

[azbackpackr]

Yeah, have to admit that once in awhile I still do drink from high mtn. springs and creeks. Not often, though. I usually have enough water with me while dayhiking that I don't have to risk it. When backpacking my routine is to set up camp and then get busy filtering.

Of course, back in the day, especially in the Sierra, we all drank from springs and creeks without a second thought. That is what the formerly ubiquitous "Sierra cup" was designed for: You hung it on your belt so you could scoop water as you went along. And you could heat water in it, too!

[Jeffshadows]

"Do I feel lucky?"

Do you feel lucky... or do you have a stock of metronidazole? ;)

Which doesn't touch some of the viral things popping up in some stock tanks and springs, of course. One of the few well-prepared base camps I was ever at had a physician's assistant who gave a course of metro to a guy with persistent diarrhea and fever only to now bring on the additional side-effect of nausea. Managing his hydration was a challenge...

[Grasshopper]

i bring micropur, its not even an "ounce" of protection.. 20 tablets will treat more than a weekend's outing and weigh about .3oz (8-10 grams)

Is this an iodine based solution and if so, do you neutralize the taste with something else?

[BobP]

te-wa wrote:
i bring micropur

I second that... and on long dayhikes and backpacks I sometimes bring my filter. And I always carry Imodium. One time in the GC about 20 miles from the TH... lets just say Imodium saved the day. Not sure if it was the mineral content in the water or maybe some gross floaty that didn't die or maybe something unrelated.

[Dschur]

I got giardia from one time a spring on Mt. Wrightson and it was treated with tablets. When went to the doctor in Payson he says he has a dozen or more causes every summer from people water skiing on Roosevelt lake. He was saying the only way to really treat it is with the boiling method. The tablets if they do anything just kill the live critters but not the eggs the eggs are what gets you. Two weeks from the day you injest them they hatch and then cause you problems.....

[chumley]

I've also had diarrhea after drinking from a spring once and I know that can be a common story.

While this may in fact be a common story, from what I've been reading, it is also a common misconception that getting ill from drinking water is caused by giardia. Giardia cysts must interact with stomach acids before "hatching" and reproducing in your intestines. This process takes a minimum of several days, and may take several weeks ... before your body is overwhelmed and decides to fight back (by making you get "sick"). So if you've fallen ill within 24 hours of drinking from an unknown water source, you may have acquired a bacterial infection, but you have definitely not been affected by giardia (at least not yet!)

[Dschur]

Giardia cysts must interact with stomach acids before "hatching" and reproducing in your intestines. This process takes a minimum of several days, and may take several weeks

Mine was two weeks from the day that I showed the syptoms....

[te_wa]

notice: Iodine does not kill protozoans! It is effective against bacteria only and IMO should be removed from shelves because it can cause/elevate other health issues especially with unbalanced thyroid gland conditions.

far as i know MicroPur is the only FDA approved water treatment (not just recognized but approved, big difference) and is used by the US Military as well as other groups, like the Peace Corps and UN.
Keep in mind, this is not chlorine (dangerous, health risk) but is chlorine dioxide.. the active ingredient is sodium (hypo)chlorite w/ an activator. Chlorine Dioxide is what municipal water treatment plants use and it is widely used since the 1950's and still in use today - #1 choice for EPA and widely used in Phx Metro.

the only way to neutralize the taste of treated water is to allow the proper time (30 min) to let the gas activate, treat, then evaporate. helps to let the 30 min time go by and then loosen the cap. some report mild taste, i can tell a difference of course between treated and non, but fwiw the tablets also remove bad tasted from natural sources, ie plant matter and other tastes..

this stuff is the real deal, if you're still using iodine you need to switch, now.
http://www.rei.com/product/695229

dshur, im curious as to what "tablets" you used..

[BobP]

huge mound of bat guano

I remember years ago going to some tourist trap in Utah. My son asked if he could buy some bat guano. I bought it for him and to me it tasted like black jelly beans .

Mine was two weeks

I've heard anywhere from 3 days to several weeks. A lot of sources say two weeks on average.

[Jeffshadows]

I've also had diarrhea after drinking from a spring once and I know that can be a common story.

While this may in fact be a common story, from what I've been reading, it is also a common misconception that getting ill from drinking water is caused by giardia. Giardia cysts must interact with stomach acids before "hatching" and reproducing in your intestines. This process takes a minimum of several days, and may take several weeks ... before your body is overwhelmed and decides to fight back (by making you get "sick"). So if you've fallen ill within 24 hours of drinking from an unknown water source, you may have acquired a bacterial infection, but you have definitely not been affected by giardia (at least not yet!)

Note the first sentence in my post - I didn't want to get too into the pathology. I am certainly aware of what you are saying, but it is probably a good idea to point out for those unfamiliar. Most of the parasitic infections take weeks to present, but bacterial and certain other causative agents come on much more quickly.

Giardia is still the most commonly diagnosed infection when a patient presents some time after having ingested water from a suspicious source, however...

[azbackpackr]

notice: Iodine does not kill protozoans! It is effective against bacteria only and IMO should be removed from shelves because it can cause/elevate other health issues especially with unbalanced thyroid gland conditions. ..

Ok, thank you for detailing this so well! I have been telling people this for about 18 years now, but I had no real technical background to discuss it. I just know it's what my boys' Scoutmaster always said, and he said one of his Scouts had actually gotten a seizure from the iodine tablets.

While you are throwing away your iodine tablets, go ahead and toss that old snakebite kit as well! ;)

[Jeffshadows]

While you are throwing away your iodine tablets, go ahead and toss that old snakebite kit as well! ;)

Yes!