Snow Bowl Protesters

[Tough_Boots]

not sure if this is affecting Humphries access but protesters are up there this morning keepin' things interesting halting construction.

http://bsnorrell.blogspot.com/2011/06/l ... wbowl.html

[hippiepunkpirate]

not sure if this is affecting Humphries access but protesters are up there this morning keepin' things interesting halting construction.

http://bsnorrell.blogspot.com/2011/06/l ... wbowl.html

I'd probably be mad if I was trying to hike today, but thats awesome!

[sidhayes]

What is "awesome" about it?

[chumley]

We live in a great country that allows for voices to be heard. That is what's awesome!

Both sides have presented arguments over many years and a legal decision has been rendered. Agree or disagree with their view on the issue at hand, the protestors' actions are illegal.

[Jim]

actions are illegal.

Which simply means that they are contrary to a written law, or documents, and means nothing about society, or local people's feelings. Snowbowl is considered by many to be an offense that should never have been built and this construction, expansion and use of artificial snow is just an extension of that. However, those people are not in control and can not write the laws. Despite an existing law which is supposed to protect native rights, a group of non-natives determined that this would not affect their rights. You might consider their actions illegal, but plenty of far, far worse things have been done by the enforcers, and legislators of our land under the law. So, legality is just a flag to stand behind and wave. If the protestors are comfortable facing the consequences of those who exercise control over the Peaks, then I say let them do it.

[chumley]

However, those people are not in control and can not write the laws.

But they are in control of who can write the laws. And they have been for a long time. It's called a representative republic for a reason. Elections matter. It's amazing more people don't take them seriously.

[Jeffshadows]

However, those people are not in control and can not write the laws.

But they are in control of who can write the laws. And they have been for a long time. It's called a representative republic for a reason. Elections matter. It's amazing more people don't take them seriously.

I would be interested to see a study on how often our "representatives" vote with popular sentiment on any issue that isn't a major controversy in the news. I bet the numbers would be quite low across the board.

[Jim]

However, those people are not in control and can not write the laws.

But they are in control of who can write the laws. And they have been for a long time. It's called a representative republic for a reason. Elections matter. It's amazing more people don't take them seriously.

Besides that, we know that monied interests always receive the favored vote. Representative as it may be, the Supreme court is not, and neither are Federal Judges, many of whom date from the Bush years. The law was written favorably, but that doesn't mean we don't have a long history of doing what we please regardless. At this point, we are not arguing what the outcome of the trials should have been, we are arguing the actions of these 6 protestors. You say illegal is cut and dry, and illegal is the final word. I say laws are used for convenience and power as much as for public safety and good, and laws can be used for good and evil and do not protect what should be. Look to the Wallow fire, that is a direct result of decades of various laws, against nature in most cases, so a law is a construct which can be flimsy and viewed as wrong by many.

[Alston_Neal]

Besides that, we know that monied interests always receive the favored vote.

Yep and that also includes the wisdom behind golf courses and developments with artificial lakes in the desert.

[Tough_Boots]

It's called a representative republic for a reason.

how does one take representative government seriously in Arizona? Ridiculous.

[Alston_Neal]

@Tough_Boots
Hey now we have some of the best representatives money can buy.

[PLC92084]

how does one take representative government seriously in Arizona?

Compare yours with any level of government in CA and AZ wins hands-down... Our government spends most of its time trying to dream up ways to bilk (the ever-decreasing) legal residents out of more money. Can't really say they cater to big businesses because the hostile/overly-restrictive climate they've fostered has caused many to flee.

Our "representatives" pander to special interests just like yours (name a federal, state or local politician who doesn't...). The idea of fair and impartial elections is mostly a distant memory. Sad to say but protests and demonstrations are practically the last bastion for expression given the level of "representation" that currently exists.

Climbing off my soap box now...

[Jim]

I think ours panders endlessly to certain groups with a very narrow definition of certain things, and is too concerned with distraction issues instead of solving some of the real crises that have affected the state for some time.

[DarthStiller]

It says four of the protesters were Native American. I think that brings up a valid discussion of how much the representative government issue really applies here, since they are of a sovereign nation (and since this was put thru the court system, which isn’t the same as passing a law to mandate the construction). I’m all for free speech and the right to protest, but in the bigger picture here, this seems to me to be a case where the Native Americans are trying to some extent to claim control over Federally owned land. If you can for a moment try to look beyond the environmental part of the debate, I don’t like the idea of a group of people who make a point to declare themselves as separate from the rest of the US trying to have a hand in what occurs on land that doesn’t belong to them because they don’t like something for whatever reason. And the fact that they went thru the courts first before they did this implies a disrespect for the legal system, since they did this only after they didn’t get the result they wanted.

Also, I know the HAZMAT suits and “Health Hazard” signs are done for theatric effect, but it really does expose the level of ignorance on their part. plz:

[Tough_Boots]

I don’t like the idea of a group of people who make a point to declare themselves as separate from the rest of the US trying to have a hand in what occurs on land that doesn’t belong to them because they don’t like something for whatever reason. And the fact that they went thru the courts first before they did this implies a disrespect for the legal system, since they did this only after they didn’t get the result they wanted.

Isn't this exactly how OUR nation was created?

Also, how do we rectify that the land that was decided IS theirs was whatever was convenient for US to give them? If you kicked Israel and Palestine out of their areas, would it cease to be holy land for them? Look at the influence that American Christians try to have over what happens in Jerusalem.

Our "representatives" pander to special interests just like yours (name a federal, state or local politician who doesn't...).

As being someone who's been a part of "special interest groups", I'd have to say that local politicians in AZ don't really give a crap. They would tend to side with lobbyists and other representatives of business. Lobbyists and business (for whatever reason one wants to argue) tend to be able to have close and quick access to the political realm where special interest groups (or one might call citizen action groups) must make noise in the public sector to get any attention or response from those in office. Unfortunately that noise tends to annoy people but if you believe in something and don't want to be ignored, you often need to ruffle some feathers. Just look at how much legislation CCA (Corrections Corporation of America) has gotten passed in AZ and a large portion of our citizens wouldn't even recognize their name.

[te_wa]

just an observation:
the pipeline got a green light. this will no doubt help boost Flagstaff's economy. Dont like it? then dont partake in the spoils.

have a nice day.

[DarthStiller]

Isn't this exactly how OUR nation was created?

I really believe the answer to that is no. The rallying cry was "taxation without representation". These guys went the proper route, didn't like the result, then broke the law because they didn't like the result.

you kicked Israel and Palestine out of their areas, would it cease to be holy land for them?

That whole conflict is caused by Israel kicking out the Palestinians (based on religious beliefs) from land they inhabited for centuries. I think that case is a perfect example for why the Indians are wrong to try to claim control over land they do not own based on their religious/cultural beliefs.

@te-wa
Doesn't this remind you a little of the single hauler garbage collector issue in Ftn Hills a little? Didn't like the final result, so then they throw tantrums.

[te_wa]

Doesn't this remind you a little of the single hauler garbage collector issue in Ftn Hills a little? Didn't like the final result, so then they throw tantrums.

haha, yeah. still, whether or not there are 3 different companies doing the collection, is regardless of the fact that it will take the same amount of trucks to collect the garbage.
there will be a revenge effect, to be sure.
the whole issue was noise.

[hippiepunkpirate]

Regardless of the religious/spiritual implications of this, I think Snowbowl is abusing the forest. I already think the ski runs scar the mountain side, and I am not in favor of any more development up there. I think it is especially stupid for us to pump water 4,000 vertical feet up the mountain so a bunch of white people can play in it. Maybe it can help our tourism driven economy up here, or maybe our city should figure out a way to diversify our economy so we don't have to rely on tourism. It's not like service industry jobs pay people enough money to live within their means with the astronomical housing costs we have anyway. Our tendencies to grow excessively are ridiculous, and I think Snowbowl is yet another instance of this. If people are willing to get arrested by tying themselves to machinery to voice their opinion, I do think it's AWESOME. So what they lost in court, this something they truly believe to be wrong, and they are continuing to voice their concern in a peaceful, albeit illegal manner. To the Native Americans, this is a civil rights battle. It's a completely different scenario, and you may not agree with it, but they see their actions the way Rosa Parks saw her actions when she refused to sit in the back of the bus. She got arrested because at the time, what she did was illegal. I for one am not going to sit here and believe that just because the Supreme Court handed down a ruling that it is right and it should be hailed as the moral gospel. The tribes obviously don't think so, and this is their answer. When you FEEL that your rights get stepped on and the law agrees with it, should you not stand up for yourself? Or is that simply "throwing a tantrum"?

[chumley]

For all our flaws (and there are many) we are a nation of laws. You may feel that it's awesome that somebody is willing to sacrifice to prove a point that you happen to agree with, but would you also think it was awesome if somebody was doing the same thing in support of something you didn't agree with?

Hypothetically ... After multiple years of court battles between outdoor enthusiasts and developers who want to build 100,000 homes, golf courses, shopping centers, and artificial lakes in pristine northern Arizona forest, the Supreme Court rules that development will not be allowed, but instead, the "HPP Wilderness and Recreational Preserve" will be created. But on the first day that you want to go hiking in the pristine HPP Wilderness there's a bunch of friends of the developers who have chained themselves across all the access trails. They keep at it. Every day. Every access point. You never get to enjoy HPP Wilderness because people who disagree with the court are AWESOME and standing up for their beliefs.

Would you walk up to their human barricade everyday ready to go hiking, only to be rejected from accessing the HPP Wilderness, and honestly feel that their actions are right and just?