Why I like White Mtns. hiking better than Flagstaff area

[azbackpackr]

I recently returned to Eagar for a few days, and hiked South Fork. I have to say, I still like the White Mountains better, just in general, for hiking and mountain biking, than I do the Flagstaff/Sedona area. It's true they are not super steep or spectacular, but they are far wilder. Here is a list of my reasons:

1. Surface water. The White Mountains, especially the Springerville and Alpine Districts of the forest, have a lot more surface water, year-round creeks, and lakes. There are marshes, three small rivers and their forks, (Black, Blue, Little Colorado) beaver dams, water birds, etc.
2. Crowds: There generally aren't any, except on Mt. Baldy. Even Baldy isn't all that crowded if you go up the East trail. On most other trails you can often be the only one hiking on any particular day. Escudilla used to get crowded, too, before it burned to a crisp. Now it's closed for awhile.
3. Views: The views from the tops of mountains do not include ostentatious McMansions (such as Sedona views would have) or cities or large towns. Mostly the views are wild--mountain range upon mountain range for as far as you can see.
4. Off-trail hiking: It's easy to hike off-trail in the White Mountains, and with a set of good maps you could probably backpack all the way to the Gila Wilderness without seeing a soul, and have plenty of water sources along the way.
5. Wildlife: It kind of goes without saying. In the White Mountains it is commonplace to see large herds of elk, small herds of deer or pronghorn, bald eagles, osprey, beavers, muskrats, etc. Less common but frequently seen are bears, mountain lions, bobcats, foxes, raccoons. I have lived and hiked in Flag for a year and have seen no pronghorn, and only a few elk and deer, and no bears or other animals.
6. Permits: What's a permit?
7. Highway driving: Not much traffic.
8. Dirt road driving: Not much traffic.

[gummo]

Prohorns are in Seligman and sometimes seen north of I-40 between Flagstaff and Williams. I've seen proghorns off Route 66 in Seligman at fairly close range.

[chumley]

I agree with all your sentiments. But the largest reason for 2/3/5/6/7/8 is that the population in the area is relatively small. Therefore, unless you live in the White Mountains, the biggest negative is convenience. But if more people lived in or nearer to the White Mountains, then it would more resemble Flag/Sedona.

As much as I would love to live in the area, there are just some things that aren't available there. Again, convenience. And my view on that certainly isn't unique or more people would live there.

So for now anyway, enjoy what you have. It's exists almost entirely because of what you don't have!

[azbackpackr]

But Seligman is not all that close to Flagstaff. I used to drive the school bus out Leupp Road every evening, and never saw a single pronghorn out there. Looked like prime habitat to me.

The crowds are a big issue with me. I just don't feel the same about an area that is crowded. I really dislike Humphreys for that reason, and never climbed it a single time since I moved here a year ago. Been there, done that. I hike Elden as my "exercise hike" and expect crowds there, but it's a 5 min drive from my house.

The surface water is a big issue with me also. Not many creeks around here, unless you drop to a lower elevation. I just don't have the same feeling here because there are so many people all over the place. In the White Mtns. if there was even a SINGLE car at a trailhead, we'd sometimes just go somewhere else. There is just a lot more wild country over there.

I do like Flagstaff as a town a lot better than Eagar/Springerville, or Show Low/Pinetop. Flagstaff is a far more interesting town than any in the White Mtns. In the White Mtns. you had better be prepared to try hard to find any intellectual stimulation at all. It can be found, but you really have to be looking for it--join some clubs, take classes at the CC, etc. And a lot of times you may meet an interesting person, but the next thing you know they have up and moved away. It can make you a little nuts because you feel so isolated. Talking to people all day (at work) whose main interest is in baking cookies can really get a person like me feeling down in the dumps.

In Flagstaff I was able to pursue a lot of my dreams, such as going to river guide school, taking some rock climbing classes, white water kayaking classes, etc. I was able to meet a lot of river runners, and got hooked up with some people with a private permit to raft Grand Canyon last summer for 16 days. It is also easier to get to the Canyon from here.

So, for those reasons, Flagstaff has been a lot more fun and interesting. Since I no longer had family or relationship obligations I also was able to sign up for a semester abroad for this coming spring.

[azbackpackr]

I agree with all your sentiments. But the largest reason for 2/3/5/6/7/8 is that the population in the area is relatively small. Therefore, unless you live in the White Mountains, the biggest negative is convenience. But if more people lived in or nearer to the White Mountains, then it would more resemble Flag/Sedona.

As much as I would love to live in the area, there are just some things that aren't available there. Again, convenience. And my view on that certainly isn't unique or more people would live there.

So for now anyway, enjoy what you have. It's exists almost entirely because of what you don't have!

We cross posted. And as I said above, Flagstaff is a far more interesting town to live in. Lots more interesting people.

My one remaining family member in Eagar is now moving away from there to California. I will likely go back and live in Eagar next summer, and put in a vegetable garden, and revisit places to see what they look like after the fire, but after my Sept. month-long river trip I may look for a "real job" elsewhere.

[kingsnake]

I once saw small herd of pronghorn in a meadow maybe a mile east of Bellemont. But that was back in the 80s ...

As far as being isolated, the more the better. My perfect world would be a deserted Pacific island, with a Gilligan hut, a fridge for the beer, and a generator to power the fridge. Float plane fly in once a month to drop off fuel and beer.

[chumley]

Plus maybe an internet connection and a laptop for your HAZ addiction?

[Jim]

I have seen Pronghorn many times on the Leupp Road, usually around the craters.

I always felt Flagstaff is like Show Low with Mt Elden and the Peaks, with out either of those mountains, there really isn't that much spectacular about the town. Interesting town? I guess everything is relative. Tucson is far more interesting and diverse. Flagstaff has a lot around it, but not in it. There is Flag with the Peaks/Dry Lake Hills/ Elden area, but everything else is pine forest, which was very nice 150 years ago, but today is OK for the most part. However, I did run into a few very nice stands this summer on a bike ride. Most are less than exciting to see. Oak Creek and Sedona are 30 to 60 minutes away and really a separate area and town all together, though they are considered to be nearby (but why live high if you can live low?). The Grand Canyon is really nice, but 90 minutes away, so as far as I am concerned not really nearby, though for the region as a whole it is considered nearby.

Are the White mountains better? I guess it's all perspective. I like the north-end grasslands, and the area towards the Gila is nice, but I never really thought the hills, I mean mountains, were all that impressive. My first time on Escudilla I had to use the fire finder to locate Mount Baldy, and I was pretty let down to see it is nothing more than a small bump on what looks like a long gentle ridge. Hardly rugged looking. Escudilla is far more impressive appearing and interesting to me, but being burned over right now access will be hard for some time. My favorite part of the White Mts is not really in them, it's the area south of Hannigan on 191 from Hannigan to the town south of the big mines. I love that drive, and I think there are great views and probably some great hiking out there.

[Alston_Neal]

As far as being isolated, the more the better. My perfect world would be a deserted Pacific island, with a Gilligan hut, a fridge for the beer, and a generator to power the fridge. Float plane fly in once a month to drop off fuel and beer.

You forgot Ginger and Mary Anne....

[azbackpackr]

I once saw small herd of pronghorn in a meadow maybe a mile east of Bellemont. But that was back in the 80s ...

As far as being isolated, the more the better. My perfect world would be a deserted Pacific island, with a Gilligan hut, a fridge for the beer, and a generator to power the fridge. Float plane fly in once a month to drop off fuel and beer.

Well, I kind of did that, back in the 80's. I bought a somewhat isolated acre of land in Hawaii, built a cabin, off the grid, etc. Kerosene lamps, water catchment, outhouse, etc. It was fun, for awhile, until I had a baby and was washing out dirty diapers by hand. (And NO, for crying out loud, it wasn't expensive! I do get tired of hearing that phrase, "Oh, Hawaii it's nice...but it's SO expensive!" Wah wah wah and humbug! You can still buy land cheap in that very place, for about the same price it was back in the early 80's: http://www.landwatch.com/Hawaii-County- ... /231653267

Of course, once you are living there, some actual reality might start to sink in. Like the fact that you may have some VERY scary neighbors. People always say to me, in a kind of plaintive voice, "Oh, Hawaii, it's PARADISE! Sigh....." Again, blah, blah, blah humbug. It ain't freakin' paradise at all. Just try living there for awhile and you will see. Climate is nice, though. It certainly LOOKS pretty.

OH, and they say, "How did you move there?" Simple answer. I sold my stuff, bought a plane ticket and went there. It's part of the US. You don't even need a passport.

[Jim]

Hawaii.... I sold my stuff, bought a plane ticket and went there. It's part of the US. You don't even need a passport.

That is true, it's the 51st state. Oh, wait, that's Rush Limbaugh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RkH4fIEH4E

[azbackpackr]

@Jim_H
There aren't many steep hikes,it's true. I'm looking at it in terms of creeks, watershed, and the expanse of territory that is pretty much uninhabited. It's really pretty remote over there. I mean, if you extend the area to include Catron County, New Mexico, that is one of the least sparsely populated counties in the US, and even made it into historian Dayton Duncan's book Miles From Nowhere which is a discussion of life in counties with less than one person per square mile. In Duncan's book, what constitutes a town is whether it has an eatery, a gas station, a video rental place and a hairdresser salon.

In the eastern White Mountains, including Catron County, NM, but NOT including Show Low/Lakeside/Pinetop, I would say that Round Valley (Springerville-Eagar) is the only REAL town for a 50-mile radius, because it has a hospital, a college, a high school, new library, workout gym, swimming pool (although out of service right now), 2 grocery stores, doctors, lawyers, dentists, chiropractors, etc., and last but not least, THREE espresso places! Springerville used to have a bookstore, and in my estimation it went down quite a few rungs when that closed. Eagar has an LDS bookstore, which sells guitar strings (the only reason I go there is to buy guitar strings). There is no health food store, although you can buy organic food there at Safeway and at the drugstore.

Dayton Duncan would call Springerville-Eagar a "full service town" because of those amenities. Greer, on the other hand, is not a town at all. You can't even buy gas in Greer.

[azbackpackr]

Here's an even nicer one, more trees, one acre, close to power poles, $9900: http://www.landwatch.com/Hawaii-County- ... /220690510 I actually paid $12K for mine, back in 1980, so prices have not risen.

[kingsnake]

In Wisconsin, when I was growing up, a town was an intersection with a church, a grain elevator and two bars ...

[azbackpackr]

I'll betcha there was a hairdresser or even a barber somewhere nearby, though. Maybe in someone's house, with a sign out front?

[kingsnake]

Those were called cities.

[azbackpackr]

Those were called cities.

HA!

[fotogirl53]

Re: Pronghorns around Flagstaff. I've seen them on the road to Grand Falls--the dirt road once you turn off Leupp Road. And they don't seem to be very afraid of the cars.

The area south of Parks about 5 miles south on Garland Prairie road, is kind of a pronghorn preserve, open only to bow hunting. That whole area is prime habitat and I see them all the time, all the way over to the Shultz Lake area.

I agree, Liz, that a big drawback to Flag is the lack of water. And too many people on poorly planned streets. And the lack of shopping. And the high prices for land and everything else. And, now that I have arthritis, the snow!

[azbackpackr]

When I started this thread, I was talking only about hiking: creeks, rivers, wildlife, lack of crowds, etc. Not about the nature of the towns. When it comes to towns, Flagstaff is way, way, WAY better than ANY town in the White Mtns.

Compared to anywhere in the White Mountains, Flagstaff has great shopping. Lots of choices here. Anyway, I'm not much of a shopper. I have lived in Flag for over a year and have never once been to the Flagstaff Mall. I have never even gone to Target. (I have been to Walmart lots of times, however.)

I think I have been to all the backpacking stores in Flagstaff. It's nice to be able to walk into a place to resupply for backpacking--food, fuel, sundry items--and not have to order all that on the internet. Those stores do lack the latest ultralight gear, but they have a lot of the little things you need if you go backpacking a lot. The other store I visit from time to time is Bookman's. Nice to have a Bookman's close by, like when I lived in Tucson, since I like to bring in four or five boxes of books at a time for their trade credit. I like to browse for books, also. When I'm lonely or bored, I can go to Bookman's and get coffee and browse. They let you bring the books to the coffee bar and look at them, too. Another store I like is the big New Frontiers health food store. It's expensive, but has great things to eat. There are health food restaurants here, too. And Tacos Los Altos. I love Tacos Los Altos!

As for clothes, I always go to thrift stores, but I haven't shopped for any clothes since I moved here. I always tend to wear the same old clothes until they wear out. I own only one pair of jeans, complete with holes, and about 30 pairs of shorts, plus hiking and cross country skiing clothes. I keep thinking I should go get another pair of jeans...

So, I like the town of Flagstaff just fine. It has everything I need and want: Lots of river running opportunities, lots of people to meet who are doing that, a rock climbing gym, a fantastic swimming pool, semi-urban hiking trails close to town which are good for fitness hikes, and a university where, given enough time and money, you could learn a whole lot of different things. None of that remotely exists in Springerville, (except the hiking trails) nor even in Show Low. (White Mtns. towns all have community college campuses, but you can't take river running, rock climbing or scuba diving classes there, like you can at NAU, or get a Ph.D.) The NAU pool even has kayak practice time, once a week. Imagine that! And it's free, if you're a student. Flagstaff also has a really great bike path system. To me, a bike path system in a city is a wonderful thing, because it says the people running the town care about people like me who ride bikes.

So, I'm fine with the town of Flagstaff. To me, the traffic here just says the town is thriving, people are busy. But Chumley's right: If more people lived in the White Mountains, the area would more resemble Flag/Sedona.

In the White Mtns., it seems to be boom and bust all the time. I have seen booms, with lots of building going on, town of Eagar was making plans to build a state-of-the-art swimming pool (they even bought the land for it), bike path plans, etc., but then when the economic downturn happened, it hit that place really hard. And then we had the Wallow Fire. There are lots of empty business buildings, lots of empty houses, for sale signs everywhere. It's kind of sad. And a lot of the people who didn't leave are from the old families, kind of inbred. It's like, they won. Some of us tried to make it a better place to live, but lately a lot of the more progressive people have left the area, or they have just given up. And for those who stayed, it's a very contentious atmosphere. The rednecks hating the treehuggers type of thing. When I first moved to Eagar we had a mountain bike festival every year, and an indoor swimming pool open year-round. The people doing the bike festival finally gave up because the town councils didn't give it much support (they give thousands of dollars to the ATV festival, on the other hand). And the pool? It's old, and they said they couldn't afford to maintain it, so they closed it.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see those rednecks convert all the hiking trails to ATV designation. The political polarization has become unbearable over there. Don't forget, the popular nickname for the White Mtns. is the Redneck Alps. I'm going back next summer and will try get my house ready to sell. Hiking isn't everything, after all. You can die a slow spiritual and intellectual death over there. You can feel so isolated that you might go a little nuts. My only remaining family member over there is moving to California this week, for that very reason. It just starts to get to you.

[Jim]

Except there is nothing alpine about them.