Berry ID help

[CannondaleKid]

We encountered these on our Clark Peak Trail hike (on Mt Graham) and so far our searches haven't returned a definitive answer.

They look like blackberries but there are no thorns on the plant at all.
Any ideas?
Thanks!

[juliachaos]

Mulberries, maybe?

[wallyfrack]

It looks like a black raspberry (Rubus leucodermis).

[CannondaleKid]

@juliachaos The shape of the leaves as well as the berries are different.

It looks like a black raspberry (Rubus leucodermis).

That was my first thought the moment we encountered them. But when we got back home and I did some research I found out they have thorns and these plants were completely devoid of thorns.

Thanks for the ideas.

[wallyfrack]

these plants were completely devoid of thorns.

I've read there are thornless varieties of domestic (hybrid) raspberry plants. If the seeds came from bird droppings it would be possible
they originated from domestic plants. Just a guess.

[SuperstitionGuy]

Was there any evidence of an old homestead nearby?
Just may be the leftovers of a pioneer attempt to feed themselves.

[big_load]

I've read there are thornless varieties of domestic (hybrid) raspberry plants. If the seeds came from bird droppings it would be possible
they originated from domestic plants. Just a guess.

That was my guess, too. Everything but the thorns says "raspberry". I have a couple raspberry bushes in my yard that probably came from bird droppings. (I've been here four times as long as they have, and I surely didn't plant them). Every year I have to keep a close watch to get any before the bears beat me to them.

[CannondaleKid]

Was there any evidence of an old homestead nearby?

This part of the trail traverses a very steep slope and looking farther down I seriously doubt there would have been any homestead within a mile or two as the crow flies while dropping 3,000 feet in elevation. The closest CURRENT housing is 5+ miles away and at least 6,000' feet lower in elevation.

@big_load/wallyfrack While I agree a domestic variant is within the realm of possibility it just seems remote.

Although there were tons of the natural thorny variety raspberries along a few miles of the trail, the bushes of this particular berry were spread out within a few hundred feet along the trail.

[wallyfrack]

The leaf looks like a thimbleberry and they have no thorns but the fruit is usually red unless some cross pollination has occurred.

Features

The thimbleberry shrub grows to between 18 inches and 8 feet tall. It has hairy stems, but no thorns, with the bark on the larger, older stems peeling. The leaves resemble those of maple trees, with between three and seven lobes. They are fuzzy and green, but the foliage turns shades of red and orange in the autumn. The white to pink flowers look like crinkled tissue paper, according to the Washington Native Plant Society. As many as 11 emerge in a cluster in May and June, eventually yielding brilliant red fruits that are round and hairy, falling apart to the touch when finally ripe.

Habitat

Thimbleberry displays a degree of tolerance to partial shade, but does best in full sunshine. It performs in dry or damp sites, states the Washington State University Clark County Extension, developing in an array of sites. Many kinds of soil support its growth, including damp and dry ones. Thimbleberry occurs in open woodlands in the wild and along roadsides, as well as next to streams and rivers. Its geographic distribution goes from Alaska southward into California and northern Mexico. Thimbleberry grows east from the West Coast well into the Great Lakes area.

[big_load]

While I agree a domestic variant is within the realm of possibility it just seems remote.

The raspberries in my yard probably came from a farm about 12 miles away.

[CannondaleKid]

@wallyfrack When I Googled thimbleberry some of the results simply said it was another name for raspberry so I did a little more digging. The common name thimbleberry appears to take in more than one berry so I looked at the various scientific names and the closest fit was rubus parviflorus. The leaves and shoots look good but again color is the odd item.

Frankly, this is close enough for me.
If Tracey still wants to stick with it I think the Graham County Extension would be the next resource to check with.

[CannondaleKid]

The raspberries in my yard probably came from a farm about 12 miles away.

By remote I meant low probability due not so much to distance but more to the very different micro-climate between Safford (or the valley east of Mt Graham) at an elevation of 2900' and where we encountered the berries at 9,000'.

But then again, they sure look like black raspberries so maybe they are in fact a domestic variety. Good enough for me.